Chimp & See Talk

Multispecies including chimps (and guinea baboons)

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    @Dana23 found this sequence that is - I believe - the first multispecies sequence with chimps here. I've seen videos of baboons and chimps before (elsewhere on the internet), but not here and think, it is pretty cool. In ACP0006ot2 and ACP0006ot3 a juvenile is leaving (after a vocalization) and a baboon taking its seat and in ACP0006ot5 a family is passing, observed by the baboon.

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    And as @ksigler was discussing this in the comments: I am still very insecure what counts here really as a cross-species interaction. Action - reaction - interaction?

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    So, for cross-species interaction, there has to be an action by one species that is taken as a response to an action from another species. I think it's more about motivation than timing, so it's not always clear cut. In this sequence, I'm making some assumptions, but it appears that at least one of the following might be happening:

    1. The squealing from off-camera (I thought pigs, but now baboons seem likely) scared the chimp away ( ACP0006ot2 )
    2. The baboon watched the chimp leave and took its place on the branch ( ACP0006ot3 )
    3. The baboon turned and watched the group of chimps run by ( ACP0006ot5 )
    4. The group of chimps were running away from the baboons / the baboons were chasing the chimps ( ACP0006ot6 )

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    I assumed more that they (the baboons) are running after the chimps (not chasing them) - as the chimps are the bigger species. But a mother with three kids and several baboons with dangerous canines ... Hm, might be direction competition and chasing. Interesting.

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Good point, the baboons may just be behind the chimps by coincidence. Or, maybe there's a common predator in the area causing them all to move in the same direction. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the social interactions between the 2 species are equal-ish... That is, it doesn't matter which is bigger and they aren't enemies, but an alpha of either species would be dominate over the less dominate individuals of either species. So a dominate male baboon, or group of them, would definitely have some influence on where a female and juvenile chimps decide to hang out.

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I don't disagree with the observation and thinking as such, but can you assign a dominance rank in a species comparison (or even between different communities)? As far as I understand dominance ranks in primates, it is not necessarily coupled with sheer "biological" attributes (as body size or age).

    (It is only a related question, I guess that this is not what @ksigler is suggesting. Just crossed my mind.)

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree, I wouldn't say that you could look at any group and immediately dole out rankings, but observing the group's behaviors, vocalizations, and body language will provide clues. And I think there are general affinities and aversions among some species regardless of the ranking of individuals.

    Humans are like that, at least. You can walk into, say, a business meeting, and just based on understanding of human behavior, figure out who's in charge, who's next in line, who wants to be, etc. And the catty women from Human Resources never want to sit near anyone from Accounting. 😉

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    After hearing loud baboon vocalizations the juvenile rushes off in the direction the family appears to come from and a baboon immediately sits on the vacated spot, then we see the female is taking very long strides, and the juveniles are running - that's a lot of chimp activity to occur in one minute, suggesting urgency to me.

    In the next 15 seconds, three male baboons gallop in the same direction. Those two events look linked in my opinion and the animals look like they are responding to one another; the chimps are leaving the area quickly and the male baboons are immediately galloping in the same direction. The seated baboon watches the chimps but quickly flees when the male baboons show up running, which suggests to me the baboon senses urgency on the part of the males.

    I look forward to our baboon and chimp experts giving us a run down on what's going on. Looked possibly iffy for the fem & infant but there were no horrible confrontation sounds in the following clips.

    Lol, ksigler on human hierarchy 😉

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    HI everyone, I do not have too much to say on this since I am not very familiar with the baboon/chimpanzee interaction literature. I do know that chimps predate baboons at some sites, but it is rare. I don't think it is clear which species dominates which and there is power in numbers so every case would probably need to be examined indivdually.

    eg; http://mahale.main.jp/PAN/4_2/4(2)-01.html

    https://books.google.de/books?id=2rgEPTkEHJAC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=chimpanzee+baboon+predation&source=bl&ots=ZEM28D2ppC&sig=bIjxqu_qkJEQsAM3MFbKwpftxpg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAWoVChMImKCerZeDyQIVhBFyCh3oiwxi#v=onepage&q=chimpanzee baboon predation&f=false

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  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Some comments from one of the "chimp experts" : 😃

    1. Mimi's got a good point bringing up the literature that chimps do in fact hunt and eat baboons. Pruetz et al. likewise have shown this from the habituated group at Fongoli (same habitat type as Dry Lake). Baboons are the third most hunted species there: http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/4/140507.figures-only

    2. I don't think we can really conclude much from what is happening in front of the camera here. In my own experience with baboon troops, these types of vocalizations are pretty common as there seems to frequently be aggression among baboon group members, although this too could be a scream from a capture. WIthout seeing it, I wouldn't draw any conclusions, and will leave it to @asgoffe to comment on the baboon perspective.

    3. Given the behavior of the young chimp we see in the beginning of the sequence, and also given the fact that later we only see an adult female with her kids, I am guessing that the young chimp on the branch isn't actually fleeing the baboons, but is rather just uncomfortable with the distance of their mother coupled with the proximity of the baboon group.

    4. I would be rather surprised if the adult female had been hunting baboons here. Although baboon groups can be known to chase after an individual who has attempted/succeeded in hunting a baboon (usually chimps aim for easy pickings like young baboons), neither the baboons nor the chimps seem to be running fast enough to suggest there is any chasing going on, but it is curious that they're all headed in the same direction.

    5. I've never personally seen a subadult or juvenile chimpanzee hunt a baboon, and the sex differences you see in the RSOS paper I link earlier likewise suggest baboon hunting is possibly a male-biased activity. Unless there's other adult males lurking off camera somewhere, I would be surprised if any chimp on screen did the hunting (if I were a mom on my own with my kids hanging around, I wouldn't take that risk either).

    Rather, my own personal experience is that chimpanzee males tend to hunt baboons as a group, and rarely as single individuals. Likewise, the adult baboons, especially the big scary males often team up to thwarrt the efforts of the chimps to capturing someone. Those baboons can really get quite intimidating, and we sometimes see fear grins on the chimps during these encounters (suggesting it's scary for the chimps too!).

    In summary, I think it's fair to say that this is cross-species interaction since the chimps/baboons appear to be reacting to each other's proximity, but I don't think it's fair to say there's any hunting or chasing happening here without further evidence on camera 😃

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    Thank you (and MimiA) of your informative comments! My feeling was that it wasn't a hunting situation, but more of a, "we're using this space right now" kind of thing. Too bad we can't see more of what's going on. 😦

    There also seems to be someone else higher up in the tree, as both the baboon and the chimp (just before running off) look up there, and you can see bits of food or something falling.

    I'd be interested to know if there are any ideas about why the baboon sits in the same place that the chimp leaves. Is it just a preferred spot to sit?

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  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    My guess is it's just a nice place to sit! Nice horizontal branch in a likely cooler corner of the dry streambed... good place to escape the heat! One thing to consider about Dry Lake is that temperatures get quite hot here! Many days over 40C and sometimes reaching as high as 45C! It appears that many species overlap in places either where it's a bit cooler (even a few degrees help), or where there's a water source (as we've already seen in other sequences). Could be the case here too!

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  • asgoffe by asgoffe scientist in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    i am in full agreement with all of the points made by @northernlimitptv.

    in addition, i did not hear any "distress" beyond normal social irritation in the baboon screams that we hear at the beginning of the sequence. so i don't think that the chimps were hunting the baboons. also, i find it unlikely that a female chimp with her offspring would engage in such a dangerous pursuit. in my experience guinea baboons mob all terrestrial predators other than lions (i.e. jackals, hyaenas, wild dogs, leopards, etc.). if chimps were trying to predate upon the baboons (off camera) there would have been A LOT of more noise with a number of adult male baboons coming to the rescue.

    some anthropomorphizing, as there is not enough material evidence: however, that does not mean that the baboons did not sense some inherent danger from observing chimps in the vicinity and that a female chimp would not have realised her "vulnerability". judging from the stride of the female chimp and the pace at which she and the juveniles departed, i would suggest nervousness, but not outright fear. in addition, the juvenile and subadult male baboons which we see following after the chimp family were certainly not chasing the chimps away as they would have been running faster. the babs could have been following for a number of reasons, on which we can only speculate. in any case, i dont think that the behaviour (chimps leave, babs follow) is a coincidence. it is important to also mention that hunting may not be the only factor here as chimps and baboons compete for food resources. this is an important factor for consideration since it looks like the video was taken during the dry season. although this is certainly the less sexy interpretation, we don't have enough evidence in either direction.

    after reviewing the whole sequence i also think that this is an interspecific interacton and that #interspecific_association may also be appropriate. it would be nice to get some idea of the duration that the chimps and baboons were in the area in order to better understand the timing of events. some info regarding the location of resources (food, water, travel paths) would also be useful.

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to asgoffe's comment.

    This is awesome info, thanks, @asgoffe ! We've had some conversations about interspecific associations in the past, and have plans to look at them more closely -- mostly the non-chimp species that we've been seeing together. If there is more we can do from our end to help collect data about this interaction, please let us know. Anecdotally, I've seen a good bit of footage from this camera location and it frequently features baboons traveling through or resting in this spot.

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  • ChimpAndSee by ChimpAndSee

    This is an interesting sequence. From this discussion, I have learned that chimps typically hunt baboons. However, this sequence makes it appear as if the reverse is happening. It really makes me question what the scream from outside of the camera's shot came from. While I think the most popular assumption of it coming from the baboon that later takes the position the chimp previously had, there are many other options, as well (as others have commented). What if the scream came from something that scared the baboon, leading him to run, and the sight of the running baboon is what caused the chimp to run? In regards to what can be perceived as the baboons chasing the chimps, I completely understand the various views. However, from what I have seen so far, I think it very well may be a chase considering how fast both are running. Whatever the case may be, there is an obvious sense of urgency in the air. It is very interesting how this single sequence can have so many possibilities.

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