Hunting discussion - hunters on camera
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by MimiA scientist, moderator
I decided to start something here since the chat under the video (http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005v7n) is so limited.
I do not want to condone or support what we are seeing, but for the sake of empathy, i would bring up the following: try to imagine what it is like for them to perceive us as caring more about the forest than about them, their children, and their livelihoods.
Knowing that there are cameras out there trying to help nature while feeling like they are not getting much help or support from anyone.
In countries where infant mortality, and mortality in general is so high, it is probably very hard to place a high value on life, and probably even harder to place value on animal life.
I would just caution putting our values on these images and passing judgement because the situation that our fellow humans are facing in these countries are pretty unbearable (when considering all we have).
I am by no means saying the situation is hopeless, what I want to say is how important it is to see the other side of the story and use this insight to find better conservation solutions rather than getting frustrated or demotivated by it.
These are my views, I don't want you guys to think that this is the view of the project or anyone else. Just my 2 cents.
and trust me, my reaction is the same as yours. But fighting for solutions and understanding why we are seeing what we are seeing is the way forward.
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by ksigler moderator in response to MimiA's comment.
Thanks for this, @MimiA. I removed the more judgmental part of my comment on this clip. I do try to empathize with those needing to feed their families, or feeling neglected by aid organizations. And I usually know well enough not to apply "first world" mentality to all people. I'm sure it's discouraging and angering to have people tell you that you can't kill animals you want to kill just because other people think they happen to be pretty or too important to let die out. But the showing off here is what bothers me the most. Dancing dead animals around in front of the camera is (in my opinion) disrespectful to the animals, doesn't feed their families faster, and doesn't make anyone more sympathetic to their situation.
When we've seen other hunters walking by (and I try not to assume that weapons mean hunting), I consciously try to compare it to a hunter in my own country, carrying a deer or turkey from the woods to sell or eat. Not my thing, but they do what they need to do. Though if they danced around with the corpse, I'd think it was disgusting, regardless of their situation. I do recognize and apologize that it's more of a philosophical reaction than a scientific one. :-\
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by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator
I would also like to add a few personal thoughts here.
@MimiA, I think you bring up some very valid points. We are probably all involved in this project at least in large part because of our appreciation of animals and our concern for their conservation. So it's natural to feel put off by these things. Nonetheless, I do think it's good to keep that broader perspective in mind.
@ksigler, I think you are to be commended for your thoughtfulness on this one. I would only add that, as @MimiA pointed out, when you live somewhere with high mortality and in a culture where you've grown up hunting and the bodies of dead animals are just part of your daily reality, your perspective is likely quite different than ours would be. So while it can be difficult to wrap our heads around, even showing off and dancing could mean something very different to him than it means to us.
While in the field studying chimpanzees, my team and I often encountered hunters and poachers, and it could feel incredibly frustrating. Nonetheless, I also got to see how very different their cultural and socioeconomic circumstances are from my own, and how much that shapes their views toward wildlife and toward other people, too. If we allowed ourselves to disregard or forget their perspective, I honestly think it probably would have been too difficult to continue collecting data. At the risk of sounding too cheesy, I would say that being sympathetic to both sides can keep you afloat somehow instead of making you indifferent or complacent. So while we don't have to agree with it, I think we should strive to be understanding about the complex set of circumstances involved here in order to find the means for positive change.
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by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.
Thanks @ksigler, I really love that we can have an open discussion here about these really hard to discuss issues! and you bring up great points too, I personally find it very unpleasant every time we get a poaching video on Chimp&See and this one is certianly the one I found the most upsetting as well, so I definetly understand where you are coming from too.
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by drobinso
Thank you all for helping to raise my consciousness. Rationally, I understand where the poachers are coming from and I don't blame them for what they do. Emotionally, I would rather not encounter it. Especially when I see they have monkeys, and I wonder if their victim is one of the mangabeys I've enjoyed watching so much. However, I will now make a much more conscious effort to keep the feelings of the hunters in mind.
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by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to drobinso's comment.
That open mindedness and thoughtfulness is very much appreciated and makes for great science!
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by ksigler moderator
@maureenmccarthy - thank you for your point that the dancing could mean something different to the men. That thought crossed my mind, but it's taken some time for my brain to make those connections, and you helped clarify it. (Here comes a bit of a digression...) It's been my experience that traditional education and media in my country (USA) teaches us to put other cultures of people into superficial groups, essentially, like us or not like us, modern or primitive, good or bad. It could be because it's more interesting to talk about the ways in which people are different, and helps with memorizing for tests (People from Abc do this, People from Xyz do that). But that over-simplification doesn't serve us well in the real world.
As @MimiA stated, it's great that we have a platform for these types of discussions. Poaching is a complex social + environmental + political issue that is loaded with gray areas. I don't mind admitting that I wouldn't be half as informed as I am now if it weren't for this site and the unbiased view that the science team presents. There is a quote that I love that is often applied to animal conservation, but is actually much more universal:
βIn the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught.β - Baba Dioum
I believe citizen science can be much more than just counting or classifying data, with value returned to all involved. C&S is proof. The volunteers here are exposed to many new things, and are given encouragement and support to learn and understand more - about all species. I wouldn't be surprised if some bigger conservation solutions did come out of the minds brought together here. π
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by MimiA scientist, moderator
@ksigler - thanks so much and I am so glad you feel that way! The science team is here to support everyone's curiosity (and our own!). Not only do we love doing it but it's the least we can do for all the amazing work you guys are doing! Thank you π
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by Snorticus
As a meat eater living in the USA I have the luxury of avoiding the sight of the carcasses of my food. I can be removed from that part of the process and consume the plentiful food available to me in a detached manner. I can see how the cameras throughout the hunter's territory can seem as @MimiA says symbolic of westerners caring more about the animals than the plight of the humans who have made this place their home for many years before outsiders came in to conduct studies.
The availability of and competition for food sources is a central component of the scientific study of animal populations. I sometimes forget that humans are animals who participate in the same issues related to seeking food-security because
I have formed emotional attachments and responses to these animals that we spend hours looking at and individuating and naming on chimpandsee.This project has been a rich experience for me as a source of new knowledge about so many things and such a satisfying experience of team work. I feel lucky to have stumbled onto the opportunity to participate in this project with you scientists who are tactful and helpful with our many questions, and also with you citizens who contribute much to the stimulating discussions.
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by jwidness moderator
Just a quick note -- a researcher studying chimps in east Africa once told me that the good chimp hunters in his group eat more meat than the average Ugandan. I think this speaks both to the prolific hunting by some of his chimps (they seem to be hunting the red colobus there to local extinction!) and to the state of the average Ugandan in terms of food supply. I think it's interesting to see how we attribute emotion to human hunters that we don't attribute to other predators, regardless of how desperately the hunters (human or otherwise) need to eat.
Still, I agree that seeing the videos of hunters carrying carcasses are difficult to watch π
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by MimiA scientist, moderator
Thanks for both of your thoughts @Snorticus and @jwidness! These are sound thoughts and I am very happy to be having this great discussion.
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by ksigler moderator
Just to group these clips together, here's another found by @Eswiniarski, 10 minutes later: ACP0005u6k
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by rcooley001
Human wildlife conflict is a something that may always exist in rain forest regions. You can never discount the lack of protein in these regions and the ability of people to feed there families. That doesn't mean that it isn't important to recognize areas that see a lot of hunting activity, when considering and documenting primate numbers and health. Although those of us who love primates have an immense empathy for what seems like the needless destruction, bushmeat is a primary source of protein in Africa. If you have never visited the markets in these regions and visited with the families that live there it can be very hard to understand. Many African communities, think of primates as we do of chicken. That's why projects of this type are so important. Yes, it is difficult to see carcasses carried by hunters (poachers) this may be the only way they have of feeding their families. From my experience, being there, it may be hard to see, but also is so part of the economy of the region that, I ask think of this with these comments in mind.
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by Greenfields
In one video I saw two hunters carrying their kills. Unlike in the above video, the animals had not been cleaned and cut up into meal size pieces. One man carried a red river hog on a spear; The other had a large pangolin on his spear. I recognize the legitimate use of hunting for food. I was bothered by the fact that the animals had not been prepared in the field the way ones killed for food usually are and that hogs have valuable tusks and that there is a lucrative market for the scaly skin of pangolins. Also, hunting with spears is quieter that with guns ( I've also seen hunters with guns ). Enough of my paranoia. Hunters with kills of hog and pangolin
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