Chimp & See Talk

3rd nipple or leaf on baboon?

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Looks like it is snagged and hanging on her hair rather than connected to her body as she leans over and sits down in a color clip ACP0007ar8

    baboon leaning over

    but then in clip ACP0007ar9 she scratches her back and all 3 shake like nipples, so to me it looks like 3 nipples - very distinctive!

    baboon seated

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Hmm, the way it dangles loose in ACP0007ary and ACP0007ar8 really makes me think leaf. Anything attached to the fur would move with her. And the ground is covered with similarly shaped and colored leaves.

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I really hope I was right about it being a third nipple, both because it's super cool, and also because I just tagged all the videos πŸ˜‰

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    What about in ACP0007ase when it doesn't fall off after a couple steps?

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Also, when she scratches her back in ACP0007ar9 it looks to me like there's a bit of a mound there -- that is, based on the shape of her body and the size of the potential nipple, it's maybe not just a nipple, but a whole breast that her infant has been nursing from.

    And as an aside, check out this drawing of a woman nursing from a breast on her thigh:

    enter image description here

    (Sorry if anyone thinks this is NSFW)

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to jwidness's comment.

    Welp - look at her rear - leaf - or nipple? She may have a super-anomaly, lol! j/k of course.

    You know that chances are good that MimiA will come in and crush our dreams with "It's a dead leaf" πŸ˜‰

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  • yshish by yshish moderator

    I'm for the 3rd nipple πŸ˜ƒ Someone give it a name quickly, before our dreams get crushed! πŸ˜ƒ

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Same πŸ˜ƒ

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  • yshish by yshish moderator

    I think @jwidness should name it since she was the one who first noticed/notified the anomaly on the baboon's chest! πŸ˜‰

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    lol This is the craziest conversation. πŸ˜„

    In the clip where she turns back to scratch, I agree that it looks lighter there.. I don't see a mound as much as the curve of the side of her body, going into the armpit. But if the fur is tangled to the point of holding that leaf in place, it could be pulling the strands together and causing it to look that way. I still vote leaf, tangled in the ends of the fur above the armpit.

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    At my house we have two votes for nipple as my husband just viewed & confirmed - definitely 3rd nipple. You're in the minority opinion on this, ksigler, but MimiA may side with you later! πŸ˜‰

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Jwidness better hurry if she wants get her named!

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  • yshish by yshish moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    (Psst, let's hope @MimiA has been having a nice weekend away from the internet and so we will have time enough to convince @ksigler to change her mind! πŸ˜‰ and join our side!)

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    This conversation is hilarious πŸ˜‰

    I'm a bit afraid to give her a name in case it really is just a leaf though πŸ˜•
    Can I just keep one in mind until Mimi weighs in?

    (Also, this could end up being my first named animal at dry lake πŸ˜›)

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    lol You guys are hilarious. πŸ˜ƒ Despite your persistence, and @Snorticus' outside expert, I think only two things could change my mind: 1) We find a sequence 2+ weeks forward or backward where the "object" is still there, or 2) We see a baby nurse from it. But don't let me hold you back! She probably deserves a name after all this attention, and I'm sure it will be fun to keep looking for her!

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Good call. πŸ˜ƒ

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  • yshish by yshish moderator

    @jwidness Can't wait to hear the name!! πŸ˜„

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    We certainly have no shortage of opportunities to check for her in baboon clips - our dream is still alive!

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Another aside -- one of the Gombe females (Sandy) has a third nipple, seen here:

    enter image description here

    Photo: Kristin Mosher, from http://gombechimpanzees.org/the-chimpanzees/sandy/

    Also, slightly more relevant, and super cool, Kelly Boyer-Ontl and Jill Preutz reported identifying another chimp female on camera trap footage in Senegal by her third nipple:

    enter image description here

    Hopefully it's ok for me to repost the image here -- I'm still not super clear on academic copyright rules πŸ˜•

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I believe itΒ΄s a third nipple too... πŸ˜›

    if it was a leaf, it would be such a big coincidence that it looks exactly like a nipple, itΒ΄s located near two nipples (on the milk line), and it moves like the other two nipples...

    besides, I destroyed your lovely Dominik´s unicorn duiker theory, and I feel terribly sorry for that 😦

    actually, the supernumerary nipples (polythelia) are not so rare in humans but if I remember well (I read it somewhere) very few cases are recorded in primates (IΒ΄m not sure if many primates have been studied for this purpose). Maybe Mimi has some interesting literature about this πŸ˜ƒ

    It would be very interesting to know if itΒ΄s functional...

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    @NuriaM πŸ˜› You really think it moves the same as the nipples? In the ACP0007arz clip, for example, especially near the end, you can see it twisting and swaying much more than the 2 nipples in front. Then in ACP0007ase, you can really see it swinging loose, and she's got another one tangled on her butt. The most convincing clip is ACP0007ar9 where she scratches her back, I agree, but, I'm still about 80% confident it's a leaf.

    And guilt over disproving one theory shouldn't translate into support for another one, but I'm sure you know that. lol I know it's all in good fun, though. πŸ˜„

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I totally agree with Snorticus' first comments. In the first video I would say leaf and in the second video it is more confusing. If I had to make a decision, I would say its a leaf. This is based on the way it dangles in the first video plus it looks thicker from some angles, just like the leaves on the ground. I have no problem with continuing to call this female 3 nippled, it doesn't affect the data so you should all try to find her again for sure! prove me wrong πŸ˜„ and of course you can go ahead and name her if you want πŸ˜‰ we can add the name to the list of known individuals πŸ˜ƒ

    On the other hand, I still think Dominik is a unicorn and that its not just hair :p So I am not the destroyer of all dreams!

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    @ksigler , Dominik's point was more a joke than an argument...still I believe it was hair πŸ˜›

    Hmmm...ok, let's say I am 80% sure it's a third nipple πŸ˜ƒ...but I agree that at some point it seems to be moving a bit loose.

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I'm not 100% sure it's a nipple either, but at least we know that all the videos of her so far are definitely of the same individual. I'd like to propose the name Maxine (as a very silly pun on the fact that she maybe has an axillary nipple). I'm pretty skeptical that we'll find her again even if it is a nipple given the large baboon population, so perhaps we'll just have these magical 4 minutes with her, never knowing the truth πŸ˜‰

    I did find one interesting paper from 1971 that looked at a captive colony containing 463 baboons: http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/155396

    They found 5 individuals that had supernumery nipples -- but the paper also cited another paper (from 1935 and not available online that I could find) where they discovered 3 females out of 14 in one baboon troop had extra nipples! So apparently it's not all that rare depending on the population examined?

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Good choice, jwidness! I have been looking for her whenever I see baboons, so maybe we will get lucky and she'll turn out to be a genuine anomaly and not just a gal in need of a grooming buddy :p

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Here's her tag group - so go ahead and tag her πŸ˜ƒ http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/collections/CCPL0000is

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  • yshish by yshish moderator

    LOL πŸ˜ƒ I love you guys!! (And I'm so happy she has finally deserved her own name! πŸ˜ƒ)

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  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    I love the description of her tag group πŸ˜ƒ

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    πŸ˜ƒ

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  • asgoffe by asgoffe scientist in response to ksigler's comment.

    oh this is tough! i was convinced that it was a disturbingly nipple-like leaf until i saw the last clip (ACP0007ar9) where she moves her left arm and it does not fall off. also, i would be surprised if her third nipple was the same length and yet such a different colour (it looks more grey and the others more pink) the shape of it really seems like a dead leaf to me (being curled in half and being wider at the top than at the bottom).

    if anyone sees #maxine on another day or in a few hours you will have convinced me that she has a third nipple. from all of the other clips i would say that it is definitely just a leaf as it does not move properly, the shape is odd, and the colour matches quite well the colour of the other dead leaves on the forest floor.

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to asgoffe's comment.

    Thank you for weighing in, massively appreciated ! πŸ˜„

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  • yshish by yshish moderator

    Our dream was destroyed! :[ But now we know how to tell a leaf apart from a nipple in Guinea Baboons! πŸ˜„

    Thanks! Will keep looking for her anyway..

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to asgoffe's comment.

    Thank you for your expert opinion! So - very low probability that poor Maxine has a third nipple on her chest - we will keep searching for her when we classify the many guinea baboon clips - just in case πŸ˜ƒ

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  • asgoffe by asgoffe scientist

    please @Snorticus & @yshish look hard! i would love to be proved wrong in this. πŸ˜ƒ

    i feel a bit like the grinch...

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to asgoffe's comment.

    Aaw, we just like to tease you scientists a little. We're not really disheartened when you want more evidence - it's what you guys do πŸ˜‰

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  • yshish by yshish moderator in response to asgoffe's comment.

    πŸ˜ƒ

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to asgoffe's comment.

    Thanks @asgoffe πŸ˜ƒ

    I guess we will never know, unless we find her again...

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Just to balance this discussion a little bit. ACP000643j πŸ˜‰

    enter image description here

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  • yshish by yshish moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    LOL!

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    HA!!!! That's awesome! Someone should get her a leaf πŸ˜‰

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  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    That actually made me lol, @AnLand!

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