Chimp & See Talk

**Shani/Elisa collections

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I have decided to start a new discussion about Shani and Elisa collections, in order to help see this a bit clearer.
    So based basically on their ears, I have created 4 different groups of videos, which I think are different chimps:

    GROUP 1: small cut on top of right ear // left ear damaged:

    ACP0002ano Shani one

    ACP0002jmu Elisa one

    GROUP 2: right ear // left ear undamaged:

    ACP00024pm Shani one

    ACP00026g1 Shani one

    ACP0002a6y Shani one

    ACP00024y2 Elisa one

    ACP00027lz Elisa one

    ACP00028ip Shani one

    ACP00027ly Elisa one

    ACP00024pd Elisa one

    ACP00024ru Elisa one

    GROUP 3: right ear undamaged // u-cut on the side/top of left ear:

    ACP00027rd Shani one

    ACP00021n1 Elisa one

    GROUP 4: top part of right ear missing

    ACP0002j44 Shani one

    ACP00021y8 (unclear) Shani one

    ACP0002j3g (unclear) Elisa one

    what do you think @AnLand? is it more or less what you suspected? There are still like 5 videos of Shani and Elisa ( 2 of Shani and 3 of Elisa ) where you can´t see their ears, so I didn´t add them in this list. We can discuss about them at the end 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Thanks, @NuriaM, that helps even more. I think the next steps would be to record the dates and also the accompanying infants and juveniles (that belong or might belong to each of them) here. I will try my best to put something together, but need some time. It's complicated with these females here. 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks @AnLand !!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    I´m back to this Shani + Elisa issue. I have gone through all the videos and annotations again, checked the infant´s sizes and dates and this is what I would do:

    I would just keep the Shani and Elisa names, and add some more temporary IDs. I´ve gathered those that I´m more sure of in two groups, Elisa and Shani, and left the rest aside to be given temp. IDs.This is how I think it could be best organized for further discussions:

    Elisa (Group 1 above):

    ACP0002ano : 10-Sep-2013 10:51

    ACP0002jmu : 12-Sep-2013 11:27

    Shani (Group 2 above):

    ACP00024y2 : 12-Jun-2013 14:00 with a ventral infant

    ACP0002a6y : 20-Jun-2013 8:11 with a ventral infant

    ACP00028ip : 31-Okt-2013 8:42 with a ventral-dorsal infant

    ACP00024pm : 22-Nov-2013 7:52 with a dorsal infant

    ACP00024pd : 22-Nov-2013 7:54

    CSFemale07 ACP00025lz : 28-Dez-2012 9:56 ventral infant .

    CSFemale08 ACP00026g1 (series) : 17-Feb-2013 16:07 infant on the ground

    CSFemale08b ACP00027ly 01-Apr-2013 12:24 infant on the ground

    CSFemale08c ACP00021mx 25-Apr-2013 14:34

    CSFemale08d ACP00021my 25-Apr-2013 14:34

    CSFemale09 ACP00021n1 25-Apr-2013 14:36

    CSFemale09b ACP00021lt 26-Apr-2013 8:56 infant on the ground

    CSFemale10 ACP0002j3g 01-Mai-2013 8:16

    CSFemale11 ACP0002j44 (series) 05-Mai-2013 14:27 small dorsal infant

    CSFemale11b ACP00027rd (series) 23-Jul-2013 13:17 dorsal infant

    CSFemale11c ACP00021y8 20-Sep-2013 11:59 dorsal infant

    CSFemale11d ACP00021y7 20-Sep-2013 11:59 infant on the ground

    CSFemale12 ACP00024ru 10-Nov-2013 14:34 ventral infant

    what do you guys think?

    thanks!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @NuriaM!

    I actually thought we now wait for the comprehensive list of all IDs needed for Cool Silence, but you have been faster now. 😃

    I really think, we should give the Elisa name to a female with infant as a volunteer already named the infant Elian. That would be a bit fairer to me to keep the name.

    I need to go through your suggestions a bit later, but I think that's a good start.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi @AnLand,

    so you mean Shani should be group 1and Elisa group 2?, so the other way round? I have absolutely nothing against it, and you are right about being fair.

    and there´s no hurry, we will be patiently waiting for you, I just needed to sort out my thoughts about this match a bit 😃

    thanks!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hm, no, that would be the same "problem" as Shani also has a named infant (Yasmin). I would give group 1 one of the temp IDs and keep the names Shani (with Yasmin) and Elisa (with Elian) for two females that are actually seen with an infant and cannot be the same, e.g. because of cut in the ear present. Group 1 is as we agreed an older female without an infant seen.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi all,
    here I am again with some more arrangements 😃

    GROUP 1 : this is a match that needs a name, and @AnLand was the one who found it. Besides, she still didn´t name any chimp in Cool Silence, so I think it´s more than fair to ask her for a name 😃 .

    ACP0002ano and ACP0002jmu : no infant seen and she has a small cut on top of her right ear. Dark face and slightly thin, curved brows and whitish beard.
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ELISA AND ELIAN : both ears undamaged. Infant sizes fit too. In chronological order:

    ACP00024y2 , ACP0002a6y , ACP00028ip , ACP00024pm
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    SHANI AND YASMIN : Shani lacks her right ear top. Infant sizes fit too. In chronological order:

    ACP00025lz , ACP0002j44 , ACP00021y8 (sorry for the stills :S )
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Now I just need to know what you think about this reorganization. If there´s agreement, I will organize the rest of the videos with their temp. IDs so that we can hopfully find new matches.

    And of course, @AnLand, would you be so kind to give us a name for Group 1?

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    just to move a bit forward, these are the remaining videos that need temp. IDs:

    CSFemale07 ACP00024pd

    CSFemale08 ACP00026g1 (…)

    CSFemale08b ACP00027ly

    CSFemale08c ACP00021mx / y

    CSFemale09 ACP00021n1

    CSFemale09b ACP00021lt

    CSFemale10 ACP0002j3g

    CSFemale11 ACP00027rd

    CSFemale12 ACP00024ru

    CSFemale13 ACP00025lz

    if we all agree, I will update our prospective/known chimp list with the new temp. IDs 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Thanks Nuria! That is a great start for a discussion. I will search for a name for the match and look into the Elisa match a bit later.

    For Shani, I have serious doubts - I take ACP0002j44 as the prototyp as we see here facial and body traits best (and it is the cutest of all video!). For ACP00025lz, I see a right ear in the female in the back holding an infant. It definitely looks different to that ripped of ear of Shani. For ACP00021y8, I just cannot see anything. It is too dark and too far and away. What traits sprang mostly in your mind here?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    @NuriaM - just for clarification, you want to make sure all of the new temp ID chimps aren't actually one of the known chimps or matches within themselves, correct? They have (as much as possible) already been checked as not being Shani or Elisa?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Hi @ksigler, no, we want to discuss now whether they are Shani or Elisa or somebody else. It's just a temp ID, not a final ruling out anything. The matching is still very much open. That's why Nuria opened this discussion and any input is welcome.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Okay, thanks. It was a little confusing, since the clips were already tagged and added to the prospective list as previously Shani and Elisa, that seemed to me like it was moving on, not a work in progress. Not a big deal to keep considering those two, as well, though.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi Anja,

    you are right, it´s best to take ACP0002j44 as a reference for Shani. As for ACP00025lz , I thought their face shape/color fit, but you are absolutely right about the ear. This one´s right ear is round, while Shani´s is ripped 😃 so I will exclude ACP00025lz as a match and give her a temp. ID (CSFemale13)

    ACP00021y8 : I think their body build fit, and I think I can see Shani´s ripped right ear. The infant´s size fit too, what do you think about the inf. sex?

    @ksigler: this is still in progress, this discussion is open and we hope that we can find matches for the new ladies 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Sorry for the delay ... I would like to name "group 1" Mildred after Mildred Dresselhaus, the queen of carbon science. Thank you!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks @AnLand! Mildred is a funny name, and she was an amazing woman 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I´m trying to find a match to CSFemale07...

    the video is not very clear, but she walks without infant. The only known females without infants that we have in the list are Mildred and Vroni (actually Vroni is not a match, as there is only one video of her).

    Mildred has a U-cut on her right ear; I don´t know if after a while playing CSFemale07´s video I´m starting to see things, but I think I see something in her right ear in ACP00024pd at sec. 6-7 😕

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    I don't see Mildred here as she has a different (much leaner and older) appearance. Also, both her ears are damaged (right one with a cut, left one with a deformation).

    But what about "fake Alexis" in ACP0002la9 and ACP0002laa - she cannot be Alexis as she has a gray back and a deformed right ear - which Alexis has not. As said earlier, I am also missing Abile here. CSFemale07 has the same baldness, gray back, maybe the ear fold. What I am not sure about is the swelling ...

    By the way: we said that the individual in ACP0002ano is the same as ACP0002ann - so she should be tagged as Mildred too. I removed my Elisa tags from ACP0002jmu now.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks Anja,

    ACP0002ann is now corrected (Mildred)

    as for CSFemale07 being ACP0002la9 and ACP0002laa (fake Alexis) , althought it is quite difficult to say, I see the same bald patch pattern on their foreheads. Body builds fit too,and their right ears seem to be very alike (but here I´m not that sure, as I can´t see it very clearly).

    I need some more thought about it...could these two ladies be the same one?

    ACP0002la9 (fake Alexis) , ACP00024pd (CSFemale07)
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    while we think of this last possibility, what do you think about CSFemale08 and Elisa?

    Both have an infant (although I´m not sure if the sizes fit) and a juvenile (Deka). Both ears look ok in both cases.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @NuriaM, could we briefly clarify whether we can propose new matches if another one isn't solved? You said that you wanted to work on Cool Silence progressively with opening new discussions only once one is solved. I have to admit that I did not work on more matches because #CSFemale07 isn't solved now. Either way is fine, of course. I just need to know. (And maybe others as well.) Thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    yes, you are right @AnLand, I would prefer that a match proposal is solved before starting with a new one. I was just being too anxious about going ahead with our long list. But let´s solve #CSFemale07 first...

    does anyone want to weigh in about CSFemale07 and ACP0002la9 ?

    Thanks for pointing it out 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    I think Fem07 & 2la9 are likely the same. As mentioned before, we see the larger (for a female) lean body, baldness, long narrow head with a grayish muzzle, and a medium amount of gray covering the lower back. I can't see the ears well, but I do think the swellings are comparable. Not in size, at this moment, but coloration and structure. For what it's worth, I also think they both have the same cautious pausing while walking, followed by quick confident movements. Played back to back, the demeanor is identical. So, I would support @AnLand 's proposal here.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    thanks so much @ksigler!

    so CSFem07 = ACP0002la9 ...great!

    @AnLand, do you want to give us another name?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    What about CSFemale08 and Elisa?

    #CSFemale08 ( ACP00026g2 ) and #Elisa ( ACP0002a6y )

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I do not believe that CSFemale08 is Elisa. Yes, she is also bald and has a small infant, but I do not see any strong resemblance.

    What I believe is that Deka in ACP00026g1 is the same as Deka in ACP00025lz - and with that I also think that CSFemale08 is CSFemale13. She is much better seen (still in a distance) in ACP00025nf and I see the same narrow face, baldness, and the high-set ears. CSFemale13 is not tagged here, but it is a continuation.

    For CSFemale07 and "fake Alexis" - please find somebody who hasn't named a chimp. I already named several and don't want to dilute my happiness with Mildred at the moment.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks @AnLand,

    I have rechecked the possibility that Female08 and Female13 are a match: I´m pretty sure that both Dekas are the same, so I agree with you. As for the females, I think the infants do fit and I could accept a match between both females, although there´s no good and clear face view; I see same coloration, and whitish beard. The argument that would convince me is more the context (Deka + infants) than the unclear face traits though.

    Does anyone want to weigh in here? could #CSFemale08 be #CSFemale13 ?

    (Also, thanks for pointing out that some tags should be added: done 😃)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    As for the namer, correct me if I´m wrong, but I think @ksigler, you still didn´t name any chimp in Cool Silence, right? you helped us decide about Female07 and co.

    would you like to give us a name for CSFemale07 and ACP0002la9 ?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I would like to push this thread a bit, and I have checked CSFemale08 and CSFemale13 again. The more I watch them, the more convinced I am that these ladies are the same. I think both have sticking-out ears and straight brows.

    If no one disagrees, I would accept a match between CSFemale08 and CSFemale13 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thanks, @NuriaM ! What about the name Cassandra for CSFemale07 - ACP0002la9?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Sooooo beautiful!

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    To get back to the potential match between #CSFemale08 and #CSFemale13 - I looked into some videos from the identifiable list and the second female in ACP00021y7 might be the same as well. She is rather lean with a still smallish infant (but bigger, as 7 months later). She has high-set ears, baldness, straight brows. The swelling is a bit fleshy and could be compared with ACP00026g4. (But in the end not too much is well seen, I have to admit.)

    Another hint could be the female adolescent present, as we associate Deka with her. At least body build etc. do not disagree. I cannot get a good image of ear and swelling, though.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I think you are right. The infants sizes fit:

    CSFemale13´s infant: december 2012 ( ACP00025lw ) :
    enter image description here

    CSFemale08´s infant: Feb. 2013 (2 months later) ( ACP00026g4 ):
    enter image description here

    ACP00021y7 : Sept. 2013 (7 months later): enter image description here

    the female´s body build and face+ear structure convince me too. As for the swellings, I can´tsee much.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    now the juvenile, you think she could be Deka?

    Deka in ACP00025lz (Dec. 2012): enter image description here

    ACP00021y7 (Sept. 2013), : enter image description here

    Swellings, size and context could fit, but I would be very happy to read more opinions 😕

    thank you @AnLand!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I would like to add a new candidate to this match proposal:

    what do you guys think about CSFemale12? Her swellings, infant size and juveniles fit:

    CSFemale08 = CSFemale12 = CSFemale13 = ACP00021y7 ?

    All four are accompanied by a small infant and a female juvenile (Deka in most of the videos)

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hm, I would say that the juvenile following CSFemale12 is smaller than Deka and moreover, I think, he is male. So, if we take them as a family, I would rather exclude the match.

    But of course, we can look into the female without the family connection and just look into the visible traits.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks @AnLand,

    hmmm, you might be right about the juv. size, but on the other hand, Deka is usually closer to the camera and tends to stay still, or walks instead of running like in the case of the female juvenile in ACP00021y7 , while the juvenile following Female12 is clearly seen when s/he is a bit far away (i.e. smaller). But look at it when s/he first appears, don´t you think that s/he looks as big as Deka?

    enter image description here

    Besides, I might be wrong, but I think I see labia here:

    enter image description here

    anyway, if it was a male, Female13 is seen with Dimi (male) too...but I will ask for more opinions... 😃

    as for the female, I see very similar brows (straight) and face pigmentation (quite black), body build, quite dark all over her body, round head that seems to light a bit up, both ears look round...
    anyone would like to weigh in here?

    thanks again @AnLand 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I also think that the infant here in November 2013 is really small to be in the same timeline as the others (compare e.g. December 2012 for CSFemale13 and September 2013 for ACP00021y7).

    And Dimi is nearly full adult size and has very visible testicles ...

    For me, this does not really fit together. It's just my opinion, though.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi Anja,

    so no one seems to have a clear opinion about this juvenile´s sex (although some would go in the male direction 😃 ). And I think that you are right about the size...anyway, too many doubts about Female12, enough to reject this match.

    This proposal stays the same:

    CSFemale08 = CSFemale13 = ACP00021y7 ?

    thanks!!

    Posted