The beehive at Muddy Frost

• by DataDroid moderator

  ACP0004ghc
  
  
  
  The video starts as the first one finishes examining the hole in the tree. He's followed shortly by another who glances back at the camera several times as if to make sure the camera won't watch him check his secret spot.

  Posted May 26, 2015 8:13 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  My absolute favorite video so far. Thanks for sharing it! ( I think, they are looking for honey.)

  Posted May 26, 2015 8:28 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to DataDroid's comment.

  Maybe you have seen the videos of the tree with the bees living in it in MF7. I had so much hoped for a video like this. I would really love the science team to comment on this if possible.

  Posted May 26, 2015 8:35 PM

• by DataDroid moderator

  Good call. I'd only seen that tree in nighttime shots, but now that you point it out, I can see it's the same one. I've updated the subject to reflect this.

  Posted May 26, 2015 9:27 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  I am not sure that is the same tree (or the same tree at the same time) as I think there are no bees around. They probably would not approach the tree like this if there were bees around. Chimps are using sticks to get not bitten by ants so I think they would also be more careful here with bees present.
  Also there seems to be no honey or larvae in the hole (if it's the latter they are after and I am wrong with the honey). For me it is interesting that they are both looking. It's not enough that one (who seems to be older) is looking. The other one does it too.

  Posted May 27, 2015 1:17 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  hey guys, you might find this interesting:

  http://www.eva.mpg.de/primat/staff/boesch/pdf/fol_prim_tool_use_making.pdf

  look at page 89.

  Posted May 27, 2015 6:41 AM

• by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

  Thanks, @NuriaM. Will read. So, you basically agree that they might be looking for honey?

  Posted May 27, 2015 6:51 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  yes, chimps tend to check tree holes in order to find grubs and honey. I have seen some videos with chimps running away from bees after inspecting a hole...they are amazing animals (I would never dare to do that!).

  Posted May 27, 2015 7:01 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  hey @AnLand, could you please post here your videos of the tree with bees living in it? I am very curious about it...

  thanks!

  Posted May 27, 2015 7:16 AM

• by DataDroid moderator

  Here's one: ACP0004fr5. There are quite a few of these, since apparently the camera was turned toward the tree at some point.

  Posted May 27, 2015 1:09 PM

• by parsfan

  There are definitely bees using the hole on this video

  ACP0004g6q

  Shame there's no timestamp...

  Posted May 27, 2015 2:44 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to parsfan's comment.

  Yes, I agree. In this video there seem to be bees, but not nearly as much as in the one @DataDroid posted (that I also saw repeatedly). Here is another video ACP0004gc3 from the tree the chimps looked at with a scientist around. (It's seven months later.) So, I think this tree is not as populated by bees as the other one (with the odd, direct camera position e.g. in ACP0004fuv) is.

  Posted May 27, 2015 7:09 PM

• by DataDroid moderator

  Are you sure those aren't the same tree? Do the timestamps overlap, or could they be the same camera moved from one time to another?

  Posted May 27, 2015 7:21 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to DataDroid's comment.

  No, I am not sure because the perspective is very different and I cannot identify any of the landmarks around the tree. In my opinion the coloring of the tree is different (darker around the hole in the chimp and human video), but with the black-and-white video one cannot really confirm. I cannot go back far enough into my watched videostream to find a real daylight (colored) version of the near perspective. I know I have seen one, but I cannot scroll far back enough.

  Posted May 27, 2015 7:30 PM

• by DataDroid moderator

  I'm starting a #hive tag group ( CCPL00005z ) to see if we can track the development of the hive(s) and see if they are or are not the same one.

  Posted May 27, 2015 8:50 PM

• by ksigler moderator

  I believe they are the same tree, just with the camera moved to get it from a different angle. Here's a daytime pic facing the tree (from ACP0004fua).

  

  And from the side (from ACP0004gc3)

  

  You can see they both have those thick winding vines behind to the right. And there are multiple segments of the trunk, like they were fused together, with several white patches on the bark.

  Posted May 27, 2015 9:20 PM

• by DataDroid moderator

  Thanks @ksigler! Here are a couple more pictures. The easiest way to tell that they're the same is the dark scar to the left of the hive, halfway up the opening.
  
  

  Posted May 27, 2015 9:20 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to DataDroid's comment.

  Cool, you're awesome!

  Posted May 27, 2015 9:28 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  I think too that it´s the same tree...

  Thanks guys, you are amazing!

  great job!!

  Posted May 28, 2015 6:06 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  could this be the moment when the camera is relocated?

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004fw5

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004fw6

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004fw7

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004fw8

  Posted May 28, 2015 8:32 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  To keep the story together: here is another chimp scene with the bee hive: ACP0004gmi and ACP0004gmj

  A female juvenile directly in front of the hive, it looks as if bees are on her fur and she makes a movement (I think) to get them away (I would freak out!!!). An adult is crossing, the juvenile sits behind the tree with the hive and either just generally cleans herself or eating specifically the bees from its fur. (Maybe the scientists can say more about that.)

  

  

  Posted June 14, 2015 3:58 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  great videos!

  chimps don´t eat adult bees...I guess it just got stung by a bee and checks how painful it is 😉

  Posted June 16, 2015 9:26 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  And another chimp with the hive: ACP0004gho (I think she is not only passing here. Her body position suggests she looked into the hive right before the camera started.)

  

  Posted June 20, 2015 9:13 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  I think so too...

  Posted June 22, 2015 9:13 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  I wonder if the juvenile from ACP0004gmi and ACP0004gmj should be given a temporary name? There's a reasonably good shot of the face:

  

  AnLand thinks it's a girl, but I'm not so sure. At any rate, the left ear is regular, the right ear seems regular too. Brow looks fairly straight, no particularly special distinguishing marks. I think it will be hard to match, but maybe it's possible.

  Posted July 4, 2015 2:29 AM

• by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

  It is quite far away, but I am actually thinking about a match to Jane. Big ears, somehow higher on the head. Straight brows, dark eye area, big nostrils. Very small sexual swelling, but yes, I would go with female. But it's more an idea and we do not see the white spot.

  Update: after careful consideration, I realized that also MF7Juv16 and MF7Juv18 would perfectly fit into that scheme and so it seems to me unrealistic that we are here dealing all with the same individual. The traits I used are probably more a general feature of older juveniles without the power to distinct one from the other.

  Posted July 4, 2015 7:15 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  Hey guys,

  I agree with you that it should be temporarily named #MF7Juv26 ...I was thinking of Jane too.

  I will propose them as a match together with Juv16 and Juv18

  I am stil not sure about whether it´s a female or a male...let´s say ´unknown´ and write an annotation.

  Thanks!!

  Posted July 6, 2015 8:20 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  Getting back to the video that started this thread: ACP0004ghc
  
  I wonder if we can maybe ID the first male:
  
  
  
  We never get a good look at his face, but that amazing grey back! The only other male I've seen that has anything like that coloration is MF7Male03:
  
  
  
  They also have the same general build/size and their left ears match too. What do you think?

  Posted July 7, 2015 8:57 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  hmmm...it´s very tricky to figure out matches just from their backs. Adult males are usually robust and have silver backs. If they had a very significant trait like a scar or a hand missing or something like that, it would be obvious, but this is not the case.

  Still I think that they have very similar backs 😃
  Let me just ask for further opinions.

  Posted July 8, 2015 8:59 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  I completely understand if that's not enough for a match -- it just immediately popped out at me when I saw it because I don't think I've ever seen a chimp with a back quite that grey (and down the legs too, what a handsome fellow) 😃

  Posted July 8, 2015 12:00 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  yes, they can be really impressive...

  The adult males stand up to 1.2 m. high and weigh as much as 70 kg.

  Andrew for example is a very big one too 😃

  Posted July 9, 2015 7:55 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  I'm sorry if I'm being too pushy, but I'll make one more argument why I think it's MF7Male03 (and couldn't be Andrew) 😛
  

  Looking at them all from behind:
  
  
  
  This male has a very grey back and legs, with the grey part extending all the way up to the shoulder blades, where it ends abruptly, and continuing down the legs. The color of this part is somewhere between grey and white, but also a bit yellowish. He also has a very dark area right around the anus. The testicles are not prominent.

  
  
  MF7Male03 also has very distinctive color down the back, from the shoulder blades and down the legs. It has a yellow tinge to it as well. He also has a dark area right around the anus and inconspicuous testicles.
  
  Andrew is similarly robust, but his back is not nearly so grey, and the grey doesn't extend as far. He does not have a dark area around the anus and his testicles are very pendulous.

  One last note, though this is more for fun than for evidence, at the beginning of ACP0003pe6, an individual with similar back coloration (who I suspect is this male/MF7Male03 but can never prove) passes by, before Andrew comes into the frame.
  
  

  Posted July 9, 2015 4:05 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

  I understood @NuriaM 's remark not as "this could be Andrew", but as "there are other big males, too" - because this was one of your arguments.

  We had the back discussion earlier with MF7Male03 and Achenar, where we all agreed that these are different chimps. And he has the gray back, too. I think, we are matching really, really good at this site and the silverbacks are not that rare from what I have seen so far. Without a special undeniable sign, we should not match based on a gray back.

  That's Achenar:

  

  That's MF7Male04:

  

  Morrison has a gray back, too. I cannot find a good still to show. Also, MF7Male18, but he has of course a totally different body build and we can exclude him.

  Posted July 9, 2015 4:33 PM

• by Quia moderator

  Adding to this conversation...

  Male03 ACP0004tp3
  
  Male04 ACP0003t0z
  
  (no name, looking hive) ACP0004ghc
  

  Achenar ACP0003rkt (not a match, IMO)
  

  I do think 03, 04, and the fellow peering into the beehive do look very similar, and could be the same, but I can't see enough to confidently say they're a match. Even 03/04, I'm not sure about, as we don't ever see 03 up close.

  A clear argument for grant money to get better resolution on the cameras for future recordings. 😉

  Posted July 9, 2015 10:25 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to Quia's comment.

  @Quia, what let you think, that MF7Male03, MF7Male04 and the guy @jwidness is chasing are a match, but not Achenar? The only other piece of hard evidence we have is that MF7Male04 lacks its right ear like Achenar. Discussed here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000j/discussions/DCP00004pb for MF7Male04.

  Posted July 10, 2015 2:35 AM

• by Quia moderator

  For 03/04 I see the same/similar blocky face, and wider than Achenar's. I also find the left ear to look quite similar for 03/04, it's large and close to the head. To me, Mr Beehive's ear looks more like 03/04's than Achenars.

  03/04/Achenar/Mr Beehive, all have similar builds, and similar graying.

  But as I said, I would not match them officially, because I cannot see their features clearly enough. What I do see looks the same, there's just not enough data for me to be sure.

  Posted July 10, 2015 6:17 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  Hey guys, nice chat here!

  for my taste, the back argument is too weak... I would suggest: let´s keep these guys in mind (@Quia I love Mr. Beehive nickname 😃 ) but let´s now focuss on more rigid possible matches (we still have a few in our possible matches list).

  But anyway, @jwidness made a nice collection here, I agree that they have very similar backs, I don´t want to exclude this match possibility in any case.

  Posted July 10, 2015 9:11 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Agreed. I don't want to exclude the match either. Just a little bit more evidence - ideally of course a great face shot - would be nice.

  I actually think that the third guy crossing the beehive during this minute could be Andrew. He crosses very fast and close to the camera, but you see the baldness, long face and bushy, whitish brows. You also see in the second still below that due to the light coming from the side (shining directly on his back), it looks much more whitish than we have seen this before. ACP0004ghe

  I don't propose a match here. I just want to show, what can be seen and how the influence of the light makes it difficult. It's a great discussion here.

  

  

  Posted July 10, 2015 11:16 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  thanks @AnLand, you are right, the light factor should be always taken into account.

  Posted July 13, 2015 7:39 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Another juvenile chimp with a (slight) interest in the beehive. Nothing to identify.) ACP0004g4t

  

  Posted July 18, 2015 6:32 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  s/he is in a hurry 😉

  Posted July 20, 2015 7:46 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  This is still my favorite story at Chimp&See and I got very lucky this morning with classification. Yeah! 😃 ACP0004gfe and ACP0004gff

  Female young adult (no identification possible) is poking into the beehive. Another adult female carrying an infant passes.

  

  (I re-named the thread to reflect what we discussed here.)

  Posted July 21, 2015 5:03 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  Hi @AnLand,

  I love this story too!!

  please, if you change the name of a thread, remember to tell me that you did it and what was the old name of the thread (I collect all our threads and sometimes I need to go back to them 😃 )

  Posted July 21, 2015 7:33 AM

• by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

  Sorry, something with "2 adult peer in a hole, honey" etc. ... Did not know that you are collecting the thread titles somewhere else. Will keep this in mind!

  Posted July 21, 2015 7:38 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  thanks!

  no problem, this one I remember: `2 Adult (?) Males walk by and peer into a hole in a tree, looking for honey - 2013-12-10´, (this is one of my favorites).

  Posted July 21, 2015 7:53 AM