Chimp & See Talk

Female with small infant -- CDFem09, CDFem09a, CDFem09b

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    No good face view, but: baldness, protruded brows and mouth, carrying small infant. Seems to eat the bark from the branch. ACP00054uj, ACP00054uk, ACP00054ul, ACP00054um

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Here another (different, I think) chimp feeding on bark. ACP00054mf, ACP00054mg, ACP00054mh, ACP00054mi, ACP00054j

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I think what you see here is the chimp eating the pith of this plant (the softer inside of the wood/plant basically), the bark is rather stripped away. But keep an eye out for bark eating, they do that too, but usually from fallen logs and larger trees.

    eg:
    http://www.indiana.edu/~semliki/PDFs/WranghamFibrous.pdf and
    https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00589632/document

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    These are definitely different individuals -- you've even marked the 2nd one as male in ACP00054mj 😉

    (edit: ha, I just realized ACP00054mj is 6 weeks after ACP00054mi, but regardless, I think the 2nd chimp eating is a male)

    The first thing I thought when I saw this female with the ventral clinging infant is a match to the first female in ACP0004zr0 (found by @AnLand).

    enter image description here

    Same very protruding muzzle, protruding brows, baldness, somewhat pale ears, ventral infant. What do you think?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    Thanks, @MimiA - more to read, less time for annotating 😉

    (I actually hoped they are making spears to hunt galagos. So, I am slightly disappointed. As kids we also tried to eat that inner white stuff of small branches. Tastes like nothing, I have to admit. Maybe the papers tell me what a great, healthy stuff I neglected.)

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    LOL! You will read, the pith is actually not very nutritious but when they don't have high quality food that is when they will eat it (we call this a fallback food). The bark on the other hand may be nutrient rich and even possibly medicinal!

    So far the spear hunting has only been observed at one site in Senegal (the Fongoli long term site) and I think we will not have it from our site in Senegal since the cameras are usually only placed 1 m off the ground but you are right, when those videos go up maybe you will see them preparing a tool 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Back to the female from ACP00054uj, ACP00054uk, ACP00054ul, ACP00054um -- I'm pretty sure it's her leaving in ACP00054uf. Here she is getting up at 14:42:52

    enter image description here

    and here is the image from 14:42:58

    enter image description here

    But a lot can happen in 6 seconds 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,
    about the first sequence of videos (ACP00054uj, ACP00054uk, ACP00054ul, ACP00054um, ACP00054uf) we can see her face only one little moment, and not whole, so it will be very difficult to ID this female with these images.

    About the second serie of videos, ACP00054mf, ACP00054mg, ACP00054mh, ACP00054mi, it seems a big chimp but there is no way to be sure about the gender from this videos, where can see only the upper body, because we agree that ACP00054mj is not from the same serie, right? So we are not sure about if is a male or a female.. let's see if we find more videos of this serie which could help us with this chimp!

    Thanks a lot 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Yes, agree. These are different chimps and no good face views. But I liked the story and wanted to post it. To bad that they are just feeding on fallback food (not making spears).

    But it adds to my strange impression of this place. Lots and lots of travel in big parties. No tool use, almost no feeding, missing limbs and much more aggression that I've seen at Muddy Frost and Red Water.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Chimps are so interesting! (Sorry, nothing substantial to add 😛)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    jejeje, yes chimps are so interesting! and also the situation around them can make them change their behavior...
    As you have seen in this site there are a lot of hunting, and use some tools (as a stone or a wood to open nuts) can make a lot of noise, that could say the hunters where the chimps are... sometimes they use some tool or others depending of their external factors.

    Anyway, I think that we will have much more videos in 8 - Crimson Dew, so anything can happens! 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Yes, the noise is a good point. Did not really think about it.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    😉

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I believe I found the protruding brow female again in ACP000587x (cross posted to http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP00009vn):

    enter image description here

    To restate what's been said above: I think it's the same female with ventral infant in ACP00054uj, ACP00054uk, ACP00054ul, ACP00054um, ACP00054uf, ACP0004zr0, and ACP000587x.

    Same very protruding muzzle, protruding brows, baldness, somewhat pale ears, long narrow face, fairly small body size, ventral infant.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi
    from now were are going to call

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054ul: CDFem09

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP000587x: CDFem09a

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004zr0: CDFem09b

    to keep clear that we are thinking in a match here. But also we have CDFem08 and CDFem08a with a small baby. Let's think about these moms!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I think CDFem08 and CDFem08a are quite a big larger and more robust than CDFem9/9a/9b, with greyer backs, and wider faces. I don't see a possible match between CDFem8/8a and CDFem9/9a/9b. But maybe it will be clearer with more videos 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    No face shots: but two females carrying small infants: ACP0004zui

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    poor girls!! so scared from the camera
    so that confirm our thought that at least there are two females with small babies.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Also no face shots, but this video has 3 moms -- two with ventral infants and one with a dorsal infant: ACP00057zx

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great!
    the last one seems older than the two first... could be Amy and River? Difficult to know

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I have been looking into the CDFem09, 09a, and 09b videos and pictures now for a while. They are all not the best, but I see some things they all three have in common (besides the small infant, of course). a) more general: the pronounced baldness and straighter brows, (prodrutedness (is there such a word??) only seen in CDFem09), b) there seems to be a cut (or just bent or deformation) in the upper part of their right ear. It is really not well seen, but in my opinion, some kind of irregularity is present.

    CDFem09 (seen in ACP00054uj)

    enter image description here

    CDFem09a

    enter image description here

    CDFem09b

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    She's here again in ACP00058d1:

    enter image description here

    She's last, after a male I believe is CDMale06, and then Amy/River.

    Same baldness, protruding chin, narrow face, ears that stick out, small body, small ventral infant.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I cannot see her right ear very well, but the rest fits in this last one. So, I would support a match of her to the others.

    That means we are settling for the moment on three females with a small infant. One of them (Gertrude) has a second younger offspring. CDFem09 (+ a +b + new one from ACP00058d1) is never seen with another dependent offspring. CDFem10 is only seen once without another offspring in sight, so we cannot determine anything here.

    I still have this scene on my list: ACP00059xj, ACP00059xk a very dark, lean female with - what I am pretty sure about - are two small infants. One really young close to her left leg, one a bit older with a white tuft. In ACP00059xl and ACP00059xm, another female approaches and passes. The older infant (or small juvenile, it is really hard to see) follows, and so is the first female with the infant. I am not sure what is going on here and whether both infants belong to the first dark female ...

    I think, the last female described here is neither one of the others. That makes four females with small infant?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I agree with what you said about Gertrude and CDFem09 (+ a +b + new one from ACP00058d1). However, I'm still thinking that maybe CDFem10 is also Gertrude. See my post to the CDFem10 thread: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP00009zs?page=1&comment_id=55be6b12cc1b571275000768

    As for the other scene you mention -- ACP00059xj/k/l/m -- I don't think I can rule out known females, but it's just too hard for me to tell right now. 😕 Maybe later I can revisit it.

    For me, this leaves just two known females with small infants (Gertrude/CDFem10 and CDFem09/09a/09b/ ACP00058d1), plus the mysterious scene with two adult females and two infants.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    About CDFem10/Gertrude I need to think about it, specially since be have a lot of videos of Gertrude from the back and this one of CDFem10 is from the front...

    I agree about CDFem09/a/b. Do you want to propose a name? Thanks!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi all,

    @jwidness and I suggest that @drobinso can propose a name. He/she is very, very active here, but mostly still stuck at Muddy Frost 😉 To get some emotional involvement here at Crimson Dew, a named chimp surely helps. (I sent him/her a message.) Thank you!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Absolutely. @drobinso which name do you want to propose to this female?
    Thanks a lot

    Posted

  • Mercury82 by Mercury82

    Is it possible that the female in ACP00059xl is Gertrude? Seems to have the same grey back...

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Mercury82's comment.

    I actually thought about this, but - do you think the bigger of the two infant is hers? That only plays with the very young baby? Do you agree at all that there are two young infants? One of them is very small.

    Posted

  • Mercury82 by Mercury82

    Another question:
    Maybe CDFem04b from ACP00058f6 and CDFem09 from ACP00581 and ACP000587x are the same chimp?
    I know that CDFem09 has a small infant and CDFem04 doesn't, but there are six months between the recordings (first is from 2013-03-04, the two others from 2013-12-06 & 2013-12-08).

    CDFem04b (ACP00058f6)
    enter image description here

    CDFem09 (ACP00058d1)
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Mercury82's comment.

    No, CDFem04a is older in my opinion and the baby does not seem to be so young anymore.

    Posted

  • Mercury82 by Mercury82 in response to AnLand's comment.

    It's not clear enough for me to see - there's one infant for sure, but I'm not sure about the second one - but hey, please don't forget that I'm very new to this group 😃

    Posted

  • drobinso by drobinso

    Thank you for letting me propose names! How about Ollie for the mother and Chibi for the baby?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I like it! Hopefully Chibi won't grow up to be a 150 pound giant or the name will be a bit silly 😉

    Posted

  • drobinso by drobinso

    Then we'll shorten it to Chib! 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    So, Ollie and Chib?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Mercury82's comment.

    HI Mercury82.
    I find them different. The face shape is different for me and also the ears. But I will keep this in mind and I will think a little more about that.
    Thanks

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I was just joking! I thought Chibi was very good 😃

    Posted

  • Mercury82 by Mercury82 in response to PauDG's comment.

    I can see the difference now, too, I think - it may have been the site of the clip and the grey/bald spot on the inner left arm that made me go wrong there...

    Posted

  • drobinso by drobinso

    @PaulDG Ollie for the mom and Chibi for the baby. If the baby grows into a bruiser, we can call him/her Chib for short.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Yes yes, Ollie and Chibi. They are already in the known chimp list! thank you 😉

    Posted