Shy chimp behavior -- Maggie?

• by Snorticus

  ACP0005ece and ACP0005ecf This female chimp in the bushes is very camera shy! She finally uses the other chimp to hide behind when she crosses to follow the rest. Her face is not good for ID here but her behavior is distinctive.

  

  Posted July 27, 2015 3:42 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  I totally agree -- I was actually going to suggest her as a match to this other camera shy young lady from ACP0004zr0 (found by @AnLand):
  
  
  
  (She is the second chimp in this image, between Esme, and Pearl/Flocke)
  

  I don't really expect that anyone will agree to the match just yet, since the footage above is not so great, but I'll list similarities:
  
  Both seem to be young/small females with no offspring, round heads, straight brows, shy behavior.

  Hopefully we'll find more videos with her 😃

  Posted July 27, 2015 3:55 AM

• by Snorticus

  ACP0004zr0 She may be the same as this shy female whose face we see before she dashes to the side to avoid the camera.

  She has a flat head, elongated muzzle, small facial area, not clear enough for ID though clearer in the clip than this preview

  

  Posted July 27, 2015 4:01 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  Ha, good thinking 😉
  
  Maybe with two of us behind the match, it'll go somewhere

  Posted July 27, 2015 4:10 AM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Wow, you have a super good view!!
  more than shy I would say fearful, or at least distrust. But even if we can imagine that they are the same, we need to be sure with clear pictures. I so sorry, but we need to keep looking for ID this chimp, and I pretty sure that we will do it if we continue like this.

  Thanks a lot!

  Posted July 27, 2015 5:12 PM

• by Snorticus

  Sorry, that was not an official proposal 😃 I just had not seen any chimps yet (in my short time here) that tried to avoid the cameras in such an extreme way.

  Posted July 27, 2015 5:20 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  Maybe she is not so shy after all? (Not sure whether a match, but she reminds me of her - and is a stunning beauty!)

  

  Posted July 27, 2015 5:32 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  Just from that image, I agree that she does look a lot like the shy girl -- straight brows, round head, fluffy sideburns. But then the crazy part is that when I watched the video it came from, my first thought as she was in the distance was that she looked like Maggie:
  
  

  Shiny head, funny brows, white beard, small nose, pale lips. But the closer she gets, the less sure I am. It may be because our confirmed videos of Maggie so far are from the right side and the left side, but not straight on, or I could be totally nuts 😉
  
  Still, even though she doesn't "feel" like Maggie up close to me, she does have the lines on either side of her nose, the wrinkles under the eyes, and I believe her right ear also matches Maggie's.
  

  Here's a blurry image of her right ear (sorry, it was the best preview):
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  And here's Maggie for comparison:
  
  
  
  
  

  Posted July 28, 2015 5:23 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Ooops, sorry. I forgot to post the video IDs. Just the picture will not convince @PauDG to anything: ACP00059h7 and ACP00059h8. I think, her right ear is not matching and in my opinion, she is not bald. It is hard to see (at least for my unexperienced eyes) but the reflection would be much higher with a bald forehead. She has only a whiter stripe along the midline.)

  Posted July 28, 2015 7:01 AM

• by jwidness moderator

  I wonder if this could be the shy girl in ACP00057ii?
  
  

  Posted July 28, 2015 8:55 AM

• by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

  My slight hesitation would be caused by somewhat rounder brows and the right ear is much closer to the head and has a backward bent in the upper part. I cannot see this in the young female from ACP00059h7. Her ear is also different, but otherwise. Maybe it is the perspective. There is something on both right ears, but they look different nevertheless to me. Nostrils look the same (quite big), but the one ACP00057ii has something (light spot and thicker) directly under the nostrils that I don't see in the other one.

  (We really need temporary IDs, @PauDG. Thank you!)

  Posted July 28, 2015 3:33 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  I'm sorry, I'm getting confused as to which females you're talking about. Let me try to restate what I think you're saying and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
  

  ACP0005ece/f - you're not making any comment about this chimp
  
  ACP0004zr0 - you're not making any comment about this chimp
  
  ACP00059h7/8 - has a "different ear", big nostrils
  
  ACP00057ih/i - rounder brows, right ear and nostrils not the same as ACP00059h7/8
  

  I don't disagree with your comments, but I wasn't trying to suggest the female from ACP00057ii is a match to the female from ACP00059h7. I'm suggesting that the female from ACP00057ii is a match to the female from ACP0004zr0, and that the female from ACP00059h7 is a match to Maggie. Am I making sense?

  Posted July 28, 2015 3:47 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

  Yeah, it is complicated without shorter IDs. In my last post I only talked about the two videos I mentioned. They are - in my opinion - not a match. I said earlier that I see also a difference in baldness between Maggie and the female from ACP00059h7.

  I do see similarities between the shy girl from ACP0004zr0 and the one from ACP00059h7. Straighter brow, no baldness, big nostril, body build.

  

  

  Posted July 28, 2015 4:09 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  I agree that ACP00059h7/8 and ACP00057ih/i are not a match. The rest I will have to think about -- hopefully we'll get more videos and more opinions from others 😃

  Posted July 28, 2015 4:21 PM

• by Quia moderator

  Commenting on some of these proposals:

  I am referring to the female between Esme and Pearl in ACP0004zr0 as 'shy girl' 😃

  Shy chimp in ACP0005ecf and shy girl ACP0004zr0 : Not a good enough view in the first one! 😦

  Female in ACP00057ii and shy girl ACP0004zr0: not a match for me. The first has a quite strong 'm' browline, whereas shy girl has a very straight brow.

  ACP00059h8 and shy girl ACP0004zr0: not a match for me. I see the similarity browline, both very flat and blocky, but shy girl's face is narrower/longer, and I think shy girl is less bald.

  ACP00059h8 and Maggie, I think this is a match. The right ear is seen from different angles in both, so I find it hard to match from it. But the beard, and pattern of light hairs on the muzzle, look the same. Maggie nearly has a unibrow, maybe a small dip and the left side of the brow a bit bigger, depending on the light, which I also find matches here, with a bit of a dip being visible in some lights in this video, other times it looks like a continuous brow. Maggie's head is obviously bald in the light of one video but in the other not, I think she has some fine hair left on her head, which also matches for the new one.

  
  
  
  One thing's for sure, we're out of easy early matches and back into the trenches of Chimp ID. 😃 Did I miss any proposals so far in this thread? I was hoping to get them all but there are so many!

  Posted July 29, 2015 3:56 AM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Hi all,
  The temporary names here:

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00059h7 CDFem06

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00059h8 CDFem06

  http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00057ii CDFem07

  CDFem06 and CDFem07 are not a match. Their faces are quite different. Let's think a little bit more about the other possible matches now that we have prospective names. Tell me if we need some more temporary names. I only give prospective names to the chimps from we have good images, it makes no sense use temporary names if we will not able to do a match with those images. But if there are some video that you think "deserve" a prospective name and I didn't do, please let me know.
  Thanks a lot

  Posted July 29, 2015 3:38 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  Thanks so much @PauDG! These temp names will definitely help us out. To restate what we've said before (hopefully I get everything right):
  
  @Quia and I said we thought CDFem06 was a match to Maggie, @AnLand disagreed due to baldness concerns. We all agree that CDFem06 is not CDFem07, and I don't think anyone proposed a match of CDFem07 to any other known or prospective chimps.

  Posted July 29, 2015 3:53 PM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  actually I agree with you,
  look this pictures, the marks below the nostrils, and also Maggie has a little cut in the right ear, and in CDFem06, is difficult to see but there is something weird...
  What do you think AnLand?

  

  Posted July 29, 2015 4:05 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

  I guess, I could rely on a match of CDFem06 to Maggie in this incarnation from ACP0005a95. I hesitated before about the original "Maggie"-match and I am still hesitant. I still see a difference in the clearly bushy/non-bushy brows and the baldness pattern. And I think it is not only the light as the light intensity in CDFem06 is comparable whereas it was not in the picture shown here. I am not convinced, neither of the original match nor of this addition. CDFem06 and ACP0005a95 is quite something, but I would need to think about this too. But this is only my opinion and I am definitely the least expert here.

  

  Posted July 29, 2015 5:15 PM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Ok, think a little more about that, and we also can re-check this match. Maybe we did wrong... that is not a problem, we can split if we realize that is wrong.

  Posted July 29, 2015 8:32 PM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Hi all,
  I would like to reopend this thread about the possible match between CDFem06 and Maggie. What do you think?

  Maggie

  CDFem06

  Posted August 3, 2015 1:51 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  I still agree with this match. Same baldness, beard, pale lips, odd left eyebrow. To me, it's interesting that I think she looks so different from directly in front compared to slightly from the side, but I still think it's her.

  Posted August 3, 2015 1:59 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  I looked again into that and my opinion changes not much, but a little. CDFem06has a visible scar on the left brow (quite close to the midline) and so maybe does the Maggie from here: ACP0005a95. They even do have the kind of same rear end. I cannot see this in Maggie from this video ACP0005eee. The brows are white, long, and bushy and even the damaged right ear has white hairs on it at the top. The ear is much wider and less structured. CDFem06 has also something on her right ear, but her right ear has a funny zigzag form.

  Her:

  

  and her:

  

  Yes, maybe (but I am not convinced even here). The other one from ACP0005eee: I cannot see it. There are quite long brow hairs hanging. The nostrils are smaller (in both Maggie instances). And I cannot find a reflection point that make her brows look so different to CDFem06. In the other instance, the light direction is different, but not so much with CDFem06. The different right ear.

  That's still my opinion.

  Posted August 3, 2015 6:18 PM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Hi AnLand,
  The right ear unfortunately is not completely visible in CDFem06, otherwise we could check the little "cut" that Maggie has.
  In the first video of Maggie, ACP0005eee, we can see some white hairs in her eyebrows, but they seems more white and longer because of the light.
  I still finding the left eyebrow inclined in Maggie and in CDFem06, and also look the wrinkles below the nostrils in these pictures. (you can make bigger the images by clicking them)

  

  Posted August 4, 2015 3:34 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

  @PauDG - I do not have a problem if you want to match them. You have clearly much more experience with this. I just cannot see it and that is definitely more my fault than anything else.

  Posted August 4, 2015 4:25 PM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  ok,
  we will do the match, but anyway we will keep the eyes in her, just in case some new video appears and helps us to clarify this.
  Thanks!

  Posted August 4, 2015 5:02 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  I put this here, because it was originally her thread. ACP0004zr0

  If confirmed that Maggie is Ollie, it is at the same time excluded the shy girl is Maggie as both are in the same line of chimps here and we kind of forget her also in the discussion how many "single females" there are. I still cannot see Yeesha (and for that fact also not CDFem04) in her because of the straigther brows and her more rectangular face. So is she another "single female" or can we match her to somebody? The video is from January 2014, so she is none of our mothers (until much later maybe 😉 ) The other here mentioned video (first post here) is from June 2013, so she cannot be a totally new arrival. What do you think?

  

  Posted August 14, 2015 12:53 AM

• by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

  I'm not 100% convinced she isn't Yeesha. I see the same round head, sort of triangular face, bushy sideburns, smooth dark body hair, big nostrils, faint white beard, and muzzle a bit lighter than the rest of the face. The brows maybe look a bit different, but I think it could just be the angle.

  To add some information that may not be all that useful, I realized that the cam that took this footage is about a 10 to 15 minute walk to the cam that took the footage of that amazing long sequence with Flocke twirling. We don't always get a group on both cams on the same day, but on this day (1/18/2014) there is a large traveling group about 15 minutes earlier in ACP0005096, ACP0005097, ACP0005098, ACP0005099 that seems to contain mostly the same individuals. From that other set, there is one swollen female who runs away screaming that is potentially this same swollen shy lady. Unfortunately, you really can't see anything of her face. 😕

  The other video that I think could be useful here is one from that long sequence with Flocke twirling: ACP00050a5. This video is from 4 days later (1/22/2014) and has a big male (maybe Luigi) mating with a swollen female. I think this is also Yeesha (by the looks of her face), and would match nicely with her being swollen here on 1/18/2014. To be fair, another lone female is also swollen at this time -- the one in ACP000508i -- but I'm inclined to think that's CDFem04 based on the similarity in appearance to CDFem04c's swelling/back in ACP00058e5.

  Posted August 14, 2015 1:30 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Ok, then let's look into that match. Big nostrils, slightly lighter muzzle than rest of the face - yes. Brows - difficult, but maybe the b/w algorithm levels this out with the rest of her face. Yeesha's brows are not especially round (just not straight) and maybe the dip in the middle is not big enough to be processed in the b/w footage here. Yeesha has a backward bent in her upper right ear, but the right ear is not seen here. I have to admit, the only picture where I can relate to Yeesha, is this one (see below). The sideburns are well visible and form this more boxy head, I see in the female here. I link the video here for others to take a look. ACP00057ii

  

  Maybe another line of evidence: in the other confirmed video from Yeesha ( ACP000537z ), she leaves as soon as she recognize the camera. This was here seen as a behavioral "trait". But she does not seem to have a problem with the camera (or doesn't realize) in the other video ( ACP00057ii ).

  We noted as another physical trait her prominent belly, but the video here ACP0004zr0 is half a year later and I think that does not really matter. People may change. (Of course, one could speculate ... 😉 )

  So, I am undecided, I have to say. Maybe we find some more or better evidence.

  Posted August 14, 2015 6:11 AM

• by PauDG scientist, moderator

  Hi all,
  if I need to choose between the chimps that we know, I would say that the female in ACP0004zr0 is Yeesha rather than CDFem04... but I can not see something that makes me feel 100% sure. Anyway I am going to include this female in the prospective list. She will be CDFem12/Yeesha b.

  Once we have seen all the videos we can decide what to do with the proposed matches that we have not solved.

  Thanks jwidness and AnLand

  Posted August 14, 2015 9:14 AM