Chimp & See Talk

Maggie is Ollie?

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Please, let's talk here about this possible match, to keep it separately from the "Female chimp procession". Thanks

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    (re-posted here after request)

    Ok, I hope nobody is angry with me about the crazy matching proposal, but ... I think Maggie is Ollie. It is more a feeling and I am not sure whether the timeline really fits: Maggie video in April and June 2013 and Ollie with Chibi from October 2013 on. I see the same baldness, the small dent at the brow (best seen here: ACP00054ul) and the damage in her right ear. Body size and build, as well as no gray back fits.

    But: her belly does not look too big in June 2013 and I have not really an idea about pregnancy and birth in chimps. Yes, maybe someone wants to discuss this with me. 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Here pictures (and videos) of the little cut in the right ear... but I can not see it in Ollie/CDFem09a and Ollie/CDFem09b...can you?

    one
    Maggie http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005eee

    one

    Ollie / CDFem09 http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054uj

    one

    Ollie / CDFem09a http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP000587x

    one

    Ollie / CDFem09b http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004zr0

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Still, even if we need to split the Ollie-match, it would be pretty cool, I think. 😃

    But we did the Ollie match for a reason and I looked back then into the small damage at the right ear and at least for her ACP000587x I see an irregularity as written in my post in the Ollie thread http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP00009l3

    I just copy&paste here: "I have been looking into the CDFem09, 09a, and 09b videos and pictures now for a while. They are all not the best, but I see some things they all three have in common (besides the small infant, of course). a) more general: the pronounced baldness and straighter brows, (prodrutedness (is there such a word??) only seen in CDFem09), b) there seems to be a cut (or just bent or deformation) in the upper part of their right ear. It is really not well seen, but in my opinion, some kind of irregularity is present."

    Interestingly, in ACP000587x at 14 sec. you see the dent in her brow. (Of course, I was now looking for it, but it is there in my opinion.) Unfortunately, no screenshot from this position.

    enter image description here

    (I will reply to @jwidness post from yesterday after she moved it to this thread, ok?)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    @AnLand, if you can see the little cut also in the b/w videos (sorry, I forgot that we have been talking also about this cut), why do you prefer that we split the Ollie-match? or have I misunderstood your post?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    No, I don't want to split! I did understand your post that you might agree on CDFem09, but not on CDFem09a and b. I looked into the Ollie match earlier and found it convincing then and today. And I believe that she is Maggie. (And apparently, you at least think that might be possible, right?) 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    the thing was that I was not sure about the cut in the b/w images...
    And yes, I am thinking also that they could be same, but I am still trying to find some features from Maggie in Ollie, as her left eyebrow inclined, or her marked wrinkles under the nostrils... (and some "features" from Ollie in Maggie, as the baby 😛)

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Moved from other thread:

    What a thought-provoking match suggestion! My first reaction was "that can't possibly be true -- they have videos that overlap in time". But that really isn't the case. Even going through the spreadsheet for videos that I'm just guessing are Maggie or Ollie, there is nothing for Maggie after June, and nothing for Ollie before October.

    Could Maggie be pregnant in June? Well, she does have a medium size swelling in ACP0005a95 and ACP0005a96 -- but we already discussed that that is possible (though a bit unlikely) for a pregnant female. And as @akalan said, she wouldn't necessarily look pregnant.

    Another thought that I had was "we have such great footage of Ollie and Maggie, we would have noticed before". But that's actually not true either. The only daytime videos we've agreed are Ollie are from one single sequence ( ACP00054uj, ACP00054uk, ACP00054ul, ACP00054um) and are from the side. We have a few b/w videos of her and Chibi, but we have no night videos of Maggie to compare. Well, I actually saw this video from a sequence found by @ksigler that I believe is Maggie at night in March 2013: ACP0005c2i.

    enter image description here

    I also suspect this black and white footage is Maggie (found by @rlb66xyz): ACP0005edm, ACP0005edn, ACP0005edo, ACP0005edp (taken the day after ACP0005eee). You can see here rear in the first video (with a fairly large swelling), and her face in the last two videos. It's from April 2013.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    So do Maggie and Ollie match the same physical description? I have to admit that they seem a pretty good fit. As @AnLand said, same body size/build, same baldness, funny brows. It's unfortunate that we don't have views of Ollie from the front in the day, but I find this match very tempting.

    I have one more video to add, which may not be that helpful, but I'll post it anyway. I found this video of a mom with a very small ventral infant on 8/28/2013 ACP0005fe1:

    enter image description here

    Since we seem to only have Ollie and Gertrude with young infants (and I think this infant is too small to be Cali), could this be the first video of Chibi? It would mean a conception date probably in December 2012 or January 2013, which means we have quite a lot of videos of swellings during pregnancy, but again, it's possible.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ACP0005fe1 could be Ollie and Chibi, or the mom+baby that we are looking in the Female chimp procession

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Thanks for the great support (and looking up all the other videos for checking dates). In only looked for the matching proposal in the confirmed ones from the respective tag groups. I am glad nothing obvious against the match came up. I cannot add so much to your post. I agree that I see in ACP0005c2i Maggie, too. The other one ACP0005edo is really far away. I do not disagree, but besides general body build and baldness, of course, nothing is seen. It is well possible.

    I am a bit puzzled about the swellings. @akalan - in my interpretation - did not talk about the swellings that might or might not be there during pregnancy, but only about the belly, I think. Because that was what I was talking about. So, do the swellings mean anything or can we ignore them?

    ACP0005fe1: is just wonderful. Especially if it is Maggie/Ollie and we could connect this newborn to a known chimp. Thanks for this. I did not see it before!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    I was skeptical at first, but I've had time to look at it, and I think I'm on-board with a Maggie/Ollie match. Ollie does have something about the top of the right ear, though it's hard to tell if it's a cut. There are some clips of Ollie (I don't know if Ollie is 2 different chimps) where the left brow doesn't seem to slope down at a sharp angle like Maggie's.

    Maggie:

    Maggie

    Ollie:

    Ollie

    But, here's where I'm agreeing, and hopefully this extra bit of evidence helps with the matching. I didn't realize it at first, but in addition to the long bare streak on the left inner arm, Maggie has 1 short and 1 long notch out of the hair on the top of her right arm, in ACP0005eee:

    Maggie

    And also in ACP00059h7, seen in the video only, around :13 seconds.

    And so does Ollie, maybe more visible in the clips, in ACP000587x:
    Ollies

    And in ACP00058d1:
    Ollie

    And, I agree about ACP0005c21 being Maggie, also.
    Maggie?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi all,
    yes, the video ACP0005fe1 fit between the dates that we have from Maggie and Ollie, but still missing some female with infant, so maybe is other.

    Here the videos from both, sorted by date

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005eee 2013 2 19 Maggie/CDFem01

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054hk 2013 3 10 Maggie

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005a95 2013 4 5 Maggie/CDFem02

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005a96 2013 4 5 Maggie/CDFem02

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00059h7 2013 4 18 Maggie / CDFem06

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00059h8 2013 4 19 Maggie / CDFem06

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005edm 2013 4 19 Maggie?

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005edn 2013 4 19 Maggie?

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005edo 2013 4 19 Maggie?

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005edp 2013 6 7 Maggie?

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005c2i 2013 6 7 Maggie?

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054uj 2013 10 4 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054uk 2013 10 4 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054ul 2013 10 4 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054um 2013 10 4 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00054uf 2013 10 4 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP00058d1 2013 12 6 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP000587x 2013 12 8 Ollie and Chib/CDFem9a

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0004zr0 2014 1 18 Ollie and Chib/CDFem09b

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Great find @ksigler, that helps a lot!!
    but I would like to wait to merge them, just to see few more videos ... What do you (all of you) think? Can we wait I little bit? just to be 100% sure, because it will be very chaotic if we merge them and later we need to split them again...

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    I agree about waiting before merging. And we should continue to evaluate objectively, just in case we are wrong about one or more clips. We still have a lot of clips to go through, I think? I'm not getting many chimp clips in classifying, but some more helpful evidence may still come to light. This new chronological list is very helpful, thanks!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, agreed. We should wait until we are really sure and not make her identity crisis worse. 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    One more supporting picture and video for the proposed match: ACP00055si Despite she is traveling fast, it is a really good view on her face. (Found by @Snorticus and re-found by @Boleyn)

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    @AnLand and I agree we think this is Ollie again in ACP0004xj7 in February 2014:

    enter image description here

    Slimmer female with dark back and small ventral infant. The surprising thing here (that @AnLand brought up) is that she has a fairly large swelling. I read some articles and it seems once again that Ollie is potentially in a small subset of females that swell with an infant so young. From one study, after 20 births, the average number of months to resume cycling was 41, and the range was 6 to 97. If we assume a birth around July/August, Ollie is right at the shortest interval from this particular study. However, despite resumption of cycling, many females remained infertile (i.e. they were swelling, but probably not ovulating, or at least not conceiving) -- the average number of cycles to conception is around 4, but also varies considerably. It's likely here that although Ollie is swelling, she is not yet fertile. One other interesting thing I read was a report of an interbirth interval of just 2 years with the first infant surviving (average interbirth interval is more like 4-7 years, depending on site).

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Ok, I looked at a bunch more videos that I think show Ollie's backside and match nicely with a cycle around late January (~6 months after I'm guessing Chibi was born).

    First is ACP00058bt from 12/6/2013, no swelling at all:

    enter image description here

    ACP00054ef from 12/18/2013, still no swelling:

    enter image description here

    ACP00054c3 from 1/10/2014, a little bit of swelling:

    enter image description here

    ACP00055tx from 1/14/2014, swelling is getting a bit bigger:

    enter image description here

    ACP0004zqc from 1/22/2014, bigger swelling (sorry the preview is so dark, video is better):

    enter image description here

    ACP0004xj7 from 2/1/2014, big swelling (mentioned above):

    enter image description here

    ACP00058ws from 3/29/2014, no swelling:

    enter image description here

    For reference, from what I've read, a female's cycle is about 30 to 40 days, and about 20 of those she has some degree of swelling.

    Did I include any videos that people think aren't Ollie? Other than the swelling cycle lining up nicely, she's a somewhat slender female with a dark back and small ventral infant. She also has a lot of baldness to the areas on either side of her swelling and walks with a very rounded back.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    awesome job, you all.

    To me it looks rather clear, that Ollie is Maggie. Of course also because of the features and looks etc. but mostly because of the fact, that we obviously haven't seen one single video from Maggie after July 2013 and none of Ollie before August or October. To my knowledge there is also no video containing both of them. In such a small population with many videos showing four or more chimps it's rather unlikely that they would never meet.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    @Boleyn brought up in another post that we're still working on ACP00059xj, ACP00059xk, ACP00059xl, ACP00059xm. I think I may have figured it out -- I think ACP0005d85, ACP0005d86 and ACP0005d87 are the same scene from the other side and slightly down the hill. The camera times are off by a bit, but we already said we think those cameras aren't quite synced (see ACP0005d8i).

    Looking at both camera sequences, it looks like Ollie is carrying Chibi and Flocke is running behind them. Flocke catches up and they are the three appearing in ACP00059xj. Pearl stops to pick up a few items off the ground (seen from both cameras) and then walks past Ollie. Flocke follows Pearl, and then Ollie/Chibi continue behind them.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    That makes sense. This scene bothers me for quite a while now! (And I was happy that @Boleyn brought it up again.)

    Thank you so much!!!!!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all!!! what a great job here
    ACP00055si, I agree is Ollie.
    About the other videos showing the Ollie's back, the problem is that we still missing one female with baby, so I am afraid to confuse these two females in some of back's videos.

    About the two series of videos, they seem from the same chimps, but I don't think that they are exactly the same scene, because in one of them you can see the baby almost down from the female, and not in the other. Anyway, they seem from the same group.

    Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Don't you think those sets have to be the same scene? Pearl stops at exactly the same spot (by a slim tree at ~45 degree angle) and leans over to pick something up.

    in ACP00059xl you can see her leaning over with her left leg up in the air:


    enter image description here

    and in ACP0005d87 she's again leaning over with her left leg in the air:

    enter image description here

    You can see that the cameras are not at the same level on the hill (and their clocks are off by about 5 minutes and 7 seconds). I'm guessing that after the end of ACP0005d85, Chibi's feet released from Ollie, and at the very beginning of ACP00059xj (a few seconds later) you can see him/her let go with the hands too.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I think, it is the same scene. And - if true that there are cameras nearby in some scenes and clocks are not always ideally synchronized, it could solve our other problem from Red Water: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000h/discussions/DCP0000496 Just saying. I will look into that later this evening.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    oh yes, you are right! thanks, and sorry

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @AnLand do you remember the scene where Dodge is drumming this large tree? You found the same sequence from another angle - those videos were also sligthly apart in time but no doubt it was the same scene. I mean, hey, we're out in the bush not in precision-clock-country-switzerland 😃

    Great find @jwitness! I noticed that the videos showing the same scene with Ollie and Pearl are not yet tagged? Intention?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    If you mean ACP00059xj, ACP00059xk, ACP00059xl, ACP00059xm, ACP0005d85, ACP0005d86 and ACP0005d87, I was waiting for everyone to agree. It looks like we have agreed, so I think it's ok to tag them now, right?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    I think, we all agreed on Pearl and Flocke. Ollie is very likely, but we still have the fifth mom - I would not tag her, I have to admit (although, I agree on Ollie, but still ...)

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I actually first thought it was Ollie because her rear in ACP00059xj looks like Ollie's, but I think the more convincing shot is at the beginning of ACP0005d85:

    enter image description here

    It's a little dark, but I see her big round bald forehead and long face.

    (Edit: As a side note, if anyone is ever interested in who I think is in various clips, I've marked guesses in the spreadsheet for most videos. I'm obviously not sure of all of them, but I was planning to bring up any we haven't already discussed when we get closer to finding all the CD clips.)

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Yes, I agree. But I did understand @PauDG's post that she did not confirm because of our thinking that there might/must be another mom. Maybe ask her before tagging?!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I have no problem waiting : )

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all, yes please, better if we tag for now only which we are sure, and we wait a little bit with the others, just in case we find something.
    Thank you!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am not sure whether to post it here or at Maggie's board, but while classifying I saw again this video of a young female and after watching Maggie/Ollie videos over and over, I have no doubt that she is Maggie, too. Sloping, funny brow, pink lips, body build, baldness. ACP0005byv

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Maggie for sure!!!

    I am watching again all the video, so I guess after that we could decide what to do with the thing that still pending, as do the match between Maggie and Ollie.

    Thanks!

    Posted