Chimp & See Talk

Moms with infants, December 2013

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I wasn't sure where to put this, so I'm making a new thread and maybe someone can merge it where they think it goes?

    I realized from looking at the spreadsheet that we have a set of 8 videos from 12/6/2013 showing 4 (or maybe 5??) moms with infants from behind (and some other individuals).

    The first video at 17:00:41 ACP00058bt shows a big male, then I believe Amy/River, then Ollie/Chibi. In ACP00058bu they continue walking and I believe are joined by Fry. In ACP00058bv Pearl/Flocke walk by. (Part 4 has no chimps.)

    The next set starts at 17:08:22 (but this is the next video off the cam, so nothing recorded between) with ACP00058bp -- Dodge is alone. In ACP00058bq, Gertrude, Cali, and Jax show up. In ACP00058br they continue walking and a mystery chimp shows up that looks like the big dark female with a small infant from ACP000559v, but she's far away and very hard to see. In ACP00058bs they continue out of frame.

    Finally, at 17:11:50, Esme walks by in ACP00058bl.

    Certainly there's a lot of missing time, but I think these are all different females. Also, I think the size of River and Cali supports Amy/River in the procession of chimps videos -- ACP000559t, ACP000559u, ACP000559v.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP00058br I just brought her up in the other post you had, but I cannot see that she is big. Or better: I could not distinguish her from the smaller statue that Ollie has with the light reflexes here present. I agree about the ventral infant. Back looks dark, but so is Ollie's. The way she is looking back from a distance, I could not distinguish her from Ollie here: ACP00055m2 (@PauDG here already agreed about her being Ollie, right?) So, from this I could not say that there must be another mom with a small infant. It could be Ollie as well. Just my opinion.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I looked further in the other videos you posted: What makes you think that in ACP00058bt it's Ollie? Her back is grayer at the very low end (around the swelling that is not swollen) and Ollie's swelling if I compare with ACP00055m1 looks different. She has some horizontal "line" that I do not see in the female here. (I assume that she is still not cycling again, so it should be the same, right? But you can correct me on this.). In general, I also think, she looks a bit more robust than Ollie. And is not Gertrude, so that is of course again a hint to the other scenario.

    I missed that in my last post here. Sorry.

    ACP00055m1

    enter image description here

    ACP00058bt

    https://static.zooniverse.org/www.chimpandsee.org/subjects/5520393969736d72e61a4802/previews/5520393969736d72e61a4802_6.jpg

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I don't think @PauDG agreed about ACP00055m2 being Ollie -- I think she agreed that it must be either Ollie, Yeesha, CDFem04, or an unknown female. I could be misinterpreting though. Personally, I'm not sure that it is Ollie, but I'm not sure that it's not either.

    As for whether the female in ACP00058br is Ollie, it's true she's difficult to see, but I don't think she looks like Ollie, but that's mostly a feeling. I also think that in terms of the timing, if we agree Ollie is traveling with the group in ACP00058bt, then it seems unlikely that she would have turned around, traveled by a route not caught on this camera, and then turned around again to continue in the original direction, all within 8 minutes.

    Edit: sorry, I didn't see your post in between. I can write a separate response to that.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I thought about this scene earlier and will only re-post here, as it might be relevant to the moms&babies discussion

    "I still have this scene on my list: ACP00059xj, ACP00059xk a very dark, lean female with - what I am pretty sure about - are two small infants. One really young close to her left leg, one a bit older with a white tuft. In ACP00059xl and ACP00059xm, another female approaches and passes. The older infant (or small juvenile, it is really hard to see) follows, and so is the first female with the infant. I am not sure what is going on here and whether both infants belong to the first dark female ..." (originally posted in the Ollie thread http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP00009l3) @PauDG suggested that the second female from the third video might be Gertrude and so the second older infant: Cali. The dark female has a very small infant. It's February 2014 and I am not sure whether the small infant could be born in August 2013. Maybe a scientist knows.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    You've pointed out exactly what I was feeling -- that the female in ACP00055m1 is maybe not the female in ACP00058bt -- the difference is which one we think is Ollie 😉

    I don't really see that the ACP00055m1 female has the same face as Ollie, but obviously we know nothing about the face of the female from ACP00058bt, and we have no confirmed videos of Ollie that show her rear. Maybe we just have to wait for more videos?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    I don't think that ACP00055m1 has Ollie's face, not at all. I said I could not distinguish this face from the face here in ACP00058br looking back. Whoever they are and "not distinguishable from a distance" does not mean "match proposal".

    I take from this discussion: we might have (at least) one mother more than we originally thought. More is difficult to say at the moment. (But we still have the promising Maggie/Ollie match proposal. 😉 )

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,
    what we are trying to do is veeery difficult!!! ID all these moms from the back.. so if we can not do it, is totally ok.
    Let's keep watching videos, and we will see if the "new female" appear, or we need to re-check our matches, to figure out if we have merged two different females...
    Anyway, you are doing a very great work! Thanks a million!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Have you looked at this one? Mother with a lighter muzzle, normal left ear, some gray on lower back but covered by a youngish infant. She looks a little lean to be CDFem10? No other juveniles appear to be present.

    ACP0005c2k

    mother and infant

    mother and infant

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Just as a summary, this set contains: female with large dorsal infant, female with ventral infant (both in ACP00058bt):

    enter image description here

    Pearl/Flocke (in ACP00058bv):

    enter image description here

    Gertrude/Cali (in ACP00058bq):

    enter image description here

    and a female that seems to have a ventral infant (in ACP00058br):

    enter image description here

    If we assume that the female with ventral infant from ACP00058bt did not go back and come around again 8 minutes later in ACP00058br (which I think is a pretty good assumption as I can't recall a single set from CD where the same individual appears more than once in a traveling group, but it's not totally impossible), then there are at least 5 moms.

    Additionally, if we think the female from ACP00055m1 does not match the female from ACP00058bt (which I think both @AnLand and I agree is a possibility):

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    nor do we think she matches the female from ACP00058br (and I think she doesn't), then we might have a 6th mom.

    I'm not making any statements about which mom is which, just that I think we have at least 5, and maybe 6 moms to be looking for (and potentially even more, depending on what videos show up). Hopefully we'll get some more videos to help us figure this out 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    In ACP0005c2k, based on the light face of the mom and the position of the infant (foot over the bum), I would say it's Pearl/Flocke

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I would say for now 5 moms (Amy, Pearl, Gertrude, Ollie, and 5th), and ACP0005c2k, I can not see very clear the position of the infant, but yes they seem Pearl and Flocke.. great!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Agree, possibly 5 moms at the moment. I take from the footage I posted earlier in Ollie's thread and again in the female chimp procession ( ACP0004zui ) that Ollie has the youngest infant. The others were already born in spring 2013. (I am not sure whether the number of 5 is still true in early 2014, but I cannot make up my mind about the infants here: ACP00059xj .) And, yes, a lot of speculation and guessing. At least from my side.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    @AnLand brought up ACP00058a6 in the juvenile thread and while looking at it I realized there's a mom with dorsal infant I don't recognize. I don't think she's Amy (back too dark and infant too small) or Pearl (too big, back too dark, and infant not in Flocke's position), and can't be Gertrude as Gertrude is also in the video, so I wonder if she's the same mom from ACP00058br -- she even takes the same path, far from the camera. It's really just a guess at this point, but I wonder if she's the larger female with a dark back from ACP000559v, and perhaps also this female that @AnLand and I think is carrying a dorsal infant in ACP0005d9l. For now I see her as large like Amy and Gertrude, but with a darker back than either of them. Her infant is also smaller than both River and Flocke, but bigger than Chibi, and I think maybe around the same age as Cali. Maybe she's also one of the two camera shy ladies from ACP0004zui. Anyway, just some things I'm thinking about as there's not enough information here to actually do anything with yet. I really hope we find more videos....

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    yes, we want more videos!!!!!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    If this was explained elsewhere, sorry, but when you talk about Flocke's position, do you mean dorsal vs. ventral? I hadn't paid attention to consistency in how young were being carried before now. Do you know the approximate age when they move from front to back, and is it a gradual transition or once they move, they stay there? Thanks!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi @ksigler,

    depends a lot of each individual, but between 6-12 month they begin to ride on their mother’s back.

    About Flocke's position, the baby uses some protuberance that Pearl has in her back, to put the right foot. In this picture you can see it very well

    one

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    To answer you question about the transition to dorsal riding, yes, it is gradual. I found numbers for gorillas (who reach developmental milestones a bit earlier than chimps): at 4–6 months, the gorilla infant travels 60% of the time in ventral position while at 6–12 months, it travels in the dorsal position 80% of the time (Amaral 2008). You can see this transition in progress if you look at the videos of Gertrude and Cali:

    ACP0005e6i 2/7/2013 ventral

    ACP00058p5 2/17/2013 ventral

    ACP00052it 2/222013 ventral

    ACP0004zj5 3/31/2013 ventral

    ACP0004zva 3/31/2013 (10 minutes after previous video) on the side, but more dorsal than ventral

    ACP0004zxa 4/15/2013 ventral

    ACP00058a5 11/25/2013 ventral

    ACP00058bq 12/6/2013 dorsal, switching to ventral after interaction with Dodge

    ACP000509i 1/7/2014 dorsal (unconfirmed as Gertrude/Cali though)

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Thank you both for the explanations and visuals! 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks @jwidness for the list of videos!!

    Posted