Chimp & See Talk

5th mom

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I think we have precisely one somewhat good sequence of the 5th mom: ACP000559u and ACP000559v. Luckily, two other moms are in the same sequence for comparison. Starting with ACP000559t, I see Fry, then Amy/River, then Ollie/Chibi, then the 5th mom (this sequence is dark, so you should turn up your brightness if you can):

    Amy/River:

    enter image description here




    Ollie/Chibi:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here




    5th mom:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here




    To explain why I think it's Amy/River, Ollie/Chibi, and the 5th mom, I'll bring up another nice sequence of moms -- the one I talked about in the moms with infant, Dec 2013 thread: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP0000bb7.

    Starting with ACP00058bt, I see Amy/River:

    enter image description here

    The infant is large enough that with his/her bum all the way on the right, the left leg reaches all the way over to Amy's left side, same as the infant that I said was River above. The mom is larger and has a grey back (which actually looks fairly dark in this preview, but lighter in the video). She also can't be Gertrude or Pearl because they come later in the same sequence. There really is no other infant large enough to be this one -- it has to be Amy/River.




    Next I believe is Ollie/Chibi:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    The mom is more slender, has a dark back, and her infant is so small that the arms/legs are quite low on her side, definitely not reaching her back. She has a lot of baldness to her rear as well. Although I previously wasn't sure if she matched the first female in ACP000559u, I'm now convinced they're both Ollie. The size of the mom, the color of the back, the size of the infant, the baldness on the rear all match. I think the difference in the swelling is just due to natural changes and camera angle. I also think you can see Ollie's face in ACP000559u -- I posted the preview above where she turns toward the camera and you can see her bald head. For more Ollie videos to compare, see PauDG's post: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000k/discussions/DCP0000erf

    Also, I don't think she can match the 5th mom above with ventral infant because she is more slender, her infant is smaller (the 5th mom's infant can reach her back with his/her arms and legs), and because the 5th mom has a large bald circle just above her swelling that Ollie doesn't have.




    Next is Pearl/Flocke in ACP00058bv, I don't think we need another image, but I'm just pointing her out to show she can't be any of the other females in this sequence.




    Next is Gertrude/Cali in ACP00058bq:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Gertrude is a larger lady with a grey back (similar to Amy), but you can see how much smaller Cali is here compared to the infants in ACP000559t and ACP00058bt.




    Last, there seems to be one more mom in ACP00058br (this is a terrible preview, but none is good):

    enter image description here

    As all our other moms are accounted for in this sequence, I would bet this is the shy 5th mom, but the view of her is just awful 😕

    So my conclusion is that the 5th mom is in ACP000559u and ACP000559v (and maybe ACP00058br) -- she is large, has a dark back, a dark face with white beard and white at the corner of her mouth, a large bald circle above her swelling area, and an infant larger than Chibi, but smaller than River. She can't match Amy, Gertrude, or Pearl due to back color (among other things), and she can't match Ollie because she's bigger, has a bigger infant, and has a bald circle on her rear.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The fifth mom is difficult. I definitely do not know the Crimson Dew chimps so well as @jwidness, but I think, there is another mom because of two videos that I cannot explain without this assumption.

    1. ACP000559t, ACP000559u, ACP000559v. I do not think that the first female is Amy, but is Gertrude. I think, River is bigger, this is Cali. Without that assumption, the third female could just be Gertrude and we do not need another mom. The grayness of the back is hard to see / estimate in that scene. I would not put too much weight on that. The light is unfavorable.

    2. ACP0004zui The missing mom is the one in the background. Gertrude with Cali is in front. (Even if really fast, I cannot see Pearl's pale face here and also not Amy). Her infant is smaller than the other. In the first second, we get a view on her face. She has a bald spot above the brows, the brows might be rounder. Her back is not gray. She might be CDFem10. Also because we have a video of CDFem10 ACP0004zuy and one day later one from Getrude ACP0004zj5 and I think the age of the infants does not fit. Cali is older. (I am not sure whether I go here for a match, but that makes sense to me.) - If we think that might be Amy and Gertrude with kids, we also do not need a fifth mom.

    enter image description here

    What I definitely think is Maggie's / Ollie's infant is the youngest. All the others were already born in spring 2013. Which makes the August video with the newborn - Chibi.

    In that other scene @jwidness mentioned ( ACP00058br etc.), I just cannot see very well who might be who from the females in the background. I cannot determine anything from this.

    More I cannot say about that question.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I might know the CD chimps very well, but you know the chimps at every other site much better than I do 😉

    First, to address the question of whether the first mom in ACP000559t is Amy.

    This is Cali in early December (same images as above from ACP00058bq):

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Also in the same December sequence, this is definitely not Cali or Flocke (they are already accounted for in this sequence):

    enter image description here

    The size of the infant and the grey of the mom's back (seen better in the full video ACP00058bt) mean this can really only be Amy/River. (Also, the facial features match River, discussed below.)



    Now comparing Cali and River in early December with the first infant in ACP000559t (late November), the size looks much closer to River than to Cali -- look how far the legs stretch across mom's back and down her sides:

    enter image description here

    Also, compare the size of the feet: River's feet are huge, larger than Amy's swelling area, but Cali's feet are much smaller. And River sits up quite tall above Amy, while Cali doesn't have nearly that height. The feet and the height of this infant look more like River to me.

    Looking at the facial features, this infant has a light face with a dark mask area.

    Cali's face is light all over:

    enter image description here

    while River has a darker mask around the eyes:

    enter image description here

    Additionally, around this time River covers about 2/3 of the length of Amy's back, with the bottom 1/3 visible, while Cali covers less than 1/2 of Gertrude's back:

    River in mid December in ACP000587e

    enter image description here

    Cali in early January in ACP000509i

    enter image description here

    Finally, River has a preference for riding with his/her right foot on Amy's upper right thigh/hip:

    enter image description here

    Also seen in ACP000587e, ACP00058f5, ACP0005e78, ACP0005e9o, ACP00058d1, ACP000587z

    When Cali rides dorsally (which is rare), he/she is much further forward on Gertrude's back with the foot not near her thigh, seen above in ACP000509i, and ACP00058bq, but also in ACP00050bx.

    The infant in ACP000559t has the right foot near the base of mom's thigh, somewhat visible in this preview, but more obvious in the video:

    enter image description here

    Taken all together, I think the first female/infant pair in ACP000559t has to be Amy/River.



    So if the first female in ACP000559t is Amy, could the last female be Gertrude? It's true that the lighting conditions aren't good for judging coloration, but you can clearly see that the first female has a grey back, and that the second female doesn't. The third female has the same back coloration as the second, that is, she has a dark back.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    The third female also has a large round bald dark circle just above her swelling that Gertrude does not have.

    Unknown female:

    enter image description here

    Gertrude:

    enter image description here

    I don't think this third female can be any of the known females.




    Other than ACP000559u, ACP000559v, and ACP00058br, I also previously suggested a few other (low quality) clips that might be of this unknown female. I left them out of my post above I guess because I thought it would make it less complicated, but you already mentioned one, so I'll repeat what I said earlier:

    ACP00058a6 -- a mom with a small dorsal infant. I don't think she's Amy (back too dark and infant too small and riding too far back) or Pearl (too big, back too dark, and infant not in Flocke's position) or Ollie (too big, infant too big), and can't be Gertrude as Gertrude is also in the video. She also takes the exact same path across the ground as the unknown female in ACP00058br, far from the camera.

    ACP0005d9l and ACP00059s3 (same mom, different cams) -- a mom with a small dorsal infant. Again doesn't look like Amy, Gertrude or Ollie to me, and can't be Pearl (she's already in that sequence). This infant is also riding in the same position as ACP00058a6, very far down the back, almost falling off.

    ACP0004zui -- I earlier suggested she was in this and it looks like @AnLand agrees. Both infants are too small for River and the moms aren't right for Ollie and Pearl, so that leaves Gertrude and the fifth mom, which I think is who we have here (Gertrude in front, 5th mom in back). To be honest, I don't see much of a size difference between the infants here -- the one further away maybe looks a bit smaller, but I'm not sure how much of that is perspective. Both infants are clearly smaller than River and Flocke, but larger than Chibi.




    CDFem10 I still think is Gertrude. I think we all agree the only choices for CDFem10 are Gertrude, the 5th mom, or no match (that is, she clearly doesn't match Ollie, Pearl, or Amy). I said before that she seems to have the same build, brows, ears, balding, and small infant as Gertrude, plus she has the same white beard with a dark area just below her bottom lip. Most importantly for this discussion, I think you can also see her grey back just before she walks out of frame, eliminating the 5th mom as a match here.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean about the infant size not matching -- you think that Cali looks bigger in ACP0004zj5 than CDFem10's infant? I don't really see that, but then I don't see much of a difference between the two infants in ACP0004zui anyway, so I don't think size would help me decide here.

    Hope that wasn't information overload, I've been thinking about these moms for quite a while, waiting for the end of CD classification : )

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi @jwidness and @AnLand,

    thanks to much for your posts, I really appreciate the huge and great job you are doing here!, that is amazing.

    I agree that there is a 5th mom in CD, and is true that this white circular spot above the swelling is not in the Known other moms.

    Maybe is a little weird to add only a images from the back to the prospective/known list of chimps, but as we know that there is other female with infant we need to add them to the list.

    Following the list order, she will be CDFem13, but we can keep also the "mom5th" as we have been always talking about her, so she will be CDFem13/mom5th if everyone agree.

    We are not hurry, so we can continue talking about this all we want, and also I can wait to add them to the list until we get an agreement. And again, really great job and nice discussions!

    Thanks you all

    Posted

  • drobinso by drobinso

    I just have to say that I am amazed at the work that goes into sorting out the identities of the chimps! I am face blind so I can't tell any of them apart. I'll leave that up to the rest of you. You all do such a terrific job!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    You all are amazing!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The problem I have with CDFem10 and the (maybe) 5th mom as the last female in ACP000559v and Gertrude is that she seems to have not only the the same brows but also the clear whiter part of the beard on the right side of her muzzle that is seen in Gertrude and also clearly CDFem10 despite her back looks totally different (what we do not see clearly in CDFem10). So, same face, but deviant back -> so different individuals? Maybe. They are wet. Light is unfavorable. One cannot compare the blue sequence of the starting camera with the rest of the video to establish grayness ...

    The face of the other female in ACP0004zui does not remind me of Gertrude or CDFem10. I know, it is only briefly seen and the only feature is the round bald spot above the brows, but the only one that came to my mind is not Gertrude or CDFem10, but the shy chimp. I do not want to match here, I don't think there could be a match, but the face of the third woman in ACP000559v (given that the first one is not Gertrude - it could be well Getrude); i.e. we do not have a problem with this sequence. We do not need another female.

    For me (and that is only my personal opinion): if the first female is Amy (i.e. the infant is big enough to be River (more we cannot determine) than I do not see that the third female cannot be Gertrude - and we do not need the 5th mom. ACP0004zui is way too fast to determine anything.

    Gertrude

    https://static.zooniverse.org/www.chimpandsee.org/subjects/5520399269736d72e6bc6502/previews/5520399269736d72e6bc6502_8.jpg

    CDFem10

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi!!

    but Gertrude has a white back, in this female not. Is true that the light can look them like different, but we should be able to see at least some change in the back color.

    Posted