Beautiful chimp lady sitting on a branch with her infant

• by Boleyn moderator

  I almost screamed when I found her: She's so beautiful and curious and allows us to have a perfect look at her and her infants' features. Just lovely!

  female description: dark almost black skin, round brows, the right brow has a little scar. Also the left ear has a little deformation, the right in is intact. A u-shaped balding part on her midhead, some white hairs in her baird. Her fur is also quite black, no scars visible.

  infant description: pinkish muzzle, darker around the eyes, nicely rounded brows with an almost inquiring look, big pink ears, black fur but pale hands and feet.

  ACP0006cfx ACP0006cfy ACP0006cfz ACP0006cg0

  

  

  

  a very good look at the perfectly shaped ear of the infant and at her swelling:

  

  

  nice view of the infant:

  

  and a side view of her:

  

  and here it looks as if she is nursing the infant:

  

  Posted October 9, 2015 12:57 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  These are absolutely stunning videos (and faces). Not sure about matching proposals, but I will look into DL11Female3 (and proposed matches to her). The face of this female here is very long, so I am not sure.

  Posted October 9, 2015 5:05 PM

• by MimiA scientist, moderator

  This is the most helpful chimp so far 😉

  Posted October 9, 2015 5:21 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  Actually, the damage of her left ear looks a lot like the one in DL11Female5 (and 8 and 9). She has also this long face, gray beard, straighter brow and quite big belly (no implications here, just that her belly quite big is). The age of the infant fits. The nipples in the new female here are relatively long, but I cannot see it in the others (in No. 5 they are laying flat on her breast and I cannot see whether they are long(ish) or not).

  

  Posted October 9, 2015 5:51 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  (Not totally sure what that means for DL11Female3. Is that all a big match? Quite some features are similar. I cannot see anything from her left ear, except that there is one. Is the way the baby is riding that special?)

  Posted October 9, 2015 6:06 PM

• by Snorticus

  Ooo great one - I would have screamed too, Boleyn! Now maybe we can sort out some of these moms and infants.

  Posted October 9, 2015 9:26 PM

• by Snorticus

  ACP0006cfx The small cut on her left ear is difficult to see against her dark fur or a dark background so I think it may not be visible all the time when trying to match her to other clips.

  Here is her profile view, the cut is visible but hard to see against her dark fur:

  

  Here is a view of the cut ear against the green foliage:

  

  Here is a view of her cut ear from the back:

  

  Posted October 9, 2015 9:44 PM

• by Boleyn moderator

  It's really hard to tell if one or more of the prospective females are a match to this one here.
  DL11Female5 and DL11Female8 seem to be very much alike:

  

  

  Our lady here seems to fit the pattern too. But I'm not entirely sure. Especially her nose seems to be smaller and her expression is so different. But maybe that's because she is aware of somethin odd here at this place? I'm having the impression she is constantly trying to find out what that humming of the camera might be.

  

  Posted October 10, 2015 3:24 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  It does not make the situation any clearer, but the female first described here has a very small white spot on her head (on the right side high on her forehead). DL11Female10 has the same white spot and an infant (age fits) that rides on her back the same way as the infant here. ACP00078rh (and before). She also have the same longish nipples. The left ear is not really seen, so we don't know about the damaged ear. She is a proposed match to DL11Female3.

  Edit: one more point in favor of this matching proposal is the face mask/coloration of the infant. The eye mask is very dark and his/her eyes glistening strangely in both sequences (female and infant first described here and DL11Female10 with Infant9).

  

  Nevertheless, I see in general many similarities with DL11Female5 (and 8 and 9 - this is definitely a match).

  Posted October 10, 2015 3:47 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  Sorry for so many postings, but with this new female (discussion here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000h9d), my ideas are a bit clearer. I think, we have now two different females with a damaged left ear and an infant.

  a) the beautiful lady described here by @Boleyn - here I see a good match with DL11Female10 / DL11Infant9 - based on the white spot on the head of the female, the dark eye mask of the infant, and the way the infant is sitting on her back. The latter is seen also with DL11Female3 and a match with DL11Female10 was proposed and might be the case.

  b) The proposed match of DL11Female5 + 8 + 9 can be extended to the female in ACP00078z2 and ACP00078z3. I cannot see the white spot here (and it should be seen with this perspective and under these light conditions), the left ear is in my opinion more damaged than in the other one (where I can only see a cut). The infant has a lighter face and behaves more independent (= is totally curious).

  Yes, that would be my take for the moment. What are others thinking?

  Posted October 11, 2015 6:58 PM

• by Boleyn moderator

  As much as I would like to match her up asap I have my doubts with this proposed match with DL11Female10. Fem10 is described as thin with large nostrils. Both does not apply to this lady here. She has quite a belly and her nose seems to be smaller than any I have seen so far. Also the white spot on Fem10 I think is closer to the bald spot than hers. I'm not even sure if this is a constant spot or just a bit of dirt or a small leaf?

  And last but not least the videos are more than seven months apart. Should the infant here not be a little bit bigger than DL11Infant9? I have the impression this one here is already bigger than Inf9 seven months later. I wonder too what others are thinking... 😃

  Posted October 12, 2015 11:35 AM

• by ksigler moderator

  It does look like infant is nursing in this sequence. Do we know when young chimps stop nursing? Is there overlap between nursing and solid foods, or tool usage and nursing? Just thinking, if there is no overlap, it might help eliminate some potential matches.

  Posted October 12, 2015 5:14 PM

• by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

  https://www.sciencenews.org/article/chimps-baby-teeth-dont-predict-weaning

  Says 3 to 4+ yrs. of age:

  "Harvard University’s Tanya Smith and colleagues photographed the gaping mouths of five wild infant chimpanzees in Uganda between August 2011 and December 2012.

  Each chimp’s lower first molar emerged by age 3.3, but all of the infants continued to suckle after the tooth erupted — some beyond age 4, the team observed. Therefore, scientists might need to rethink using the presence of the first molar in a hominid fossil as a sign of weaning, the researchers report online January 28 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."

  Posted October 12, 2015 5:24 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  Wow...this is getting interesting.

  she is a lovely chimp!! I am looking forward to giving her a definitive name 😉

  For the moment they will be called DL11Female16 and DL11Infant15.

  Posted October 13, 2015 4:54 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  And here your matching proposals:

  Female10 - Female3 - Female6 - Female16

  

  Female5 - Female8 - Female9 - Female16:

  

  Female14 - Female16

  

  Posted October 13, 2015 5:23 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  In my opinion, the second option is the most feasible one (by the way, Female5 and Female8 are a very potential match for my taste 😉 )

  Posted October 13, 2015 5:27 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Now that we have the temporary IDs just for clarification my current thinking about the matching:

  One might be: DL11Female5 + Female8 + Female9 + Female14 - slightly bigger damage in left ear and her face seems to be a little bit wider than DL11Female16 (but she is so close to the camera that this might be an illusion).

  One might be: DL11Female10 + (Female3) + Female16 (I have no opinion about Female6 at the moment)

  But with the overview that @NuriaM provided here, I see again why I also put DL11Female16 together with DL11Female5 + Female8 + Female9 + Female14 in the first place. The damage in the left ear, the beard, the big nostrils (but flat nose) ... Hm.

  Posted October 13, 2015 5:58 AM

• by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

  I tweeted Jill Pruetz -(Fongoli chimps) asking when chimps start tool use over there. She replied:

  "At two they start "spearing" for galagos at Fongoli but termite fish earlier - I'd have to look up the # months exactly. I know between 1 & 2 for sure but maybe even younger at Fongoli but don't have records handy here."

  So there is an overlap and I learned something new: they start tool use pretty young and continue nursing to age 3 or older - both of which surprised me.

  Posted October 13, 2015 6:38 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  Ok, guys - I have a match to her. No doubt at all. ACP0006m8z

  

  

  Posted October 13, 2015 6:44 PM

• by Snorticus

  Well that surely looks like a match to me. Long top lip, large slanted nostrils, notched left ear on female - dark eye mask on infant with lighter curved brows, pale muzzle.

  Compare:

  

  Posted October 13, 2015 7:36 PM

• by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  This one loves her close-ups!

  Posted October 14, 2015 3:14 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  I absolutely agree with you 😃

  these two guys are Fem16/Infant15 for sure!!

  thanks @AnLand 😉

  these guys need a name now... @AnLand, your found them, do you want to propose two names? or do you want to share this part with someone?

  Posted October 14, 2015 6:16 AM

• by Boleyn moderator

  Lovely, I'm glad you found the other close-up of her @AnLand otherwise we would have guessed longer which one really was her!
  She's not at all camera-shy, a real model 😃

  Posted October 14, 2015 4:28 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  she is very beautiful... 😃

  Posted October 15, 2015 6:13 AM

• by AnLand moderator

  Hi guys, sorry for the delay. I could not be here for some days.

  I actually have an interest in DL11Female5 (and 8 and 9 and 14), not really in this female and take from the discussion board that you either excluded that this beautiful lady is a match or did not further go into it.

  So, I take the risk that she might or might not be a match to the one here and would like to ask @Boleyn and @loisendaan to share the naming. @Boleyn found her ... and I know @loisendaan did not contribute ever to the discussions, but is helping since many, many weeks with classification and hashtagging and might want to have a chimp on his/her own.

  If it is ok with you, I would ask @loisendaan first for her/his choice (mom or infant) and @Boleyn could take the other one. Fine with everybody?

  Posted October 17, 2015 5:45 PM

• by Snorticus

  I think including others builds enthusiasm for participation so I agree with sharing naming. (also it's just plain fun!) I also understand having a special interest in some chimps so I like this proposal from AnLand.

  I don't think DL11Fem5 is a match to the chimp lady - but I do think she is a match to Fem8 (also has the big round nostrils, gray beard) Fem14 looks the same as Fem5 and Fem8 to me. Fem9 clip is too quick for me to decide, but she looks similar and could be a match also.

  Posted October 17, 2015 7:32 PM

• by jwidness moderator

  I haven't been following DL chimp IDs much, but MargC found a female with a clearly damaged left ear at a termite mound in ACP0006tcj ACP0006tck ACP0006tcl ACP0006tcm that might be a match -- not to the match with Fem16 who has damage midway down the ear, but to the other match.

  Preview isn't great, but you can see the damage in the video
  
  

  There's another chimp behind the mound, but so little is seen you can't even tell whether it's an adult or not.

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:04 AM

• by Boleyn moderator

  Thanks @AnLand we have already been missing you - I know I did because I have an interest in this beautiful lady here since I found the first set of her and her infant. I spent quite some hours to find a match for her and was comparing her to every available female here 😃 I understand that @loisendaan helped out a lot but I haven't seen any contribution to this discussion from him/her. So if everybody agrees I would like to have a go at the female naming and @loisendaan is very welcome to propose a name to the infant.

  Actually I'm having a name ready since the day I found her. This said I'd like to propose "Tyra" for the lady. I hope this isn't too much straightforward though... Thanks, all!

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:11 PM

• by Boleyn moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

  @jwidness I think the damage is quite high up in the ear at the female in ACP0006tcj while the one of our lady is in mid-ear. The roudness of her upper ear is perfect while at this one here the roundness seems to be broken. Do you see what I mean?

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:20 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

  Hi @Boleyn, no problem. I will tell @loisendaan that the kid can be hers.

  About @jwidness proposal: I think, she does not talk about a match to DL11Female16 (Tyra), but about the female I try to match (DL11Female5 + 8 + 9 + 14) as her left ear is damaged as well, but maybe in a different way.

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:34 PM

• by jwidness moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

  Sorry if I was unclear (maybe I should have posted in another thread) -- I absolutely agree ACP0006tcj is not a match to Fem16 (proposed as Tyra). Earlier in this thread there was a match suggestion of Fem5 + Fem8 + Fem9 + Fem14 (by @AnLand). This is the match I'm suggesting for ACP0006tcj (although I also agree with Snorticus that Fem9 is awfully quick and hard to see).

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:36 PM

• by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

  Oops, I posted without refreshing again, sorry!

  Yes, @AnLand is correct, I was talking about adding ACP0006tcj to her proposal of 5 + 8 + 14 + maybe 9

  Posted October 18, 2015 4:38 PM

• by Snorticus

  Since we agree that the beautiful lady female is not a match to the @AnLand females & infants proposal can we have a new thread for discussing your Fem 5 + 8 + 14 + 9 (and maybe others)? I posted a thread that talks about this and a new clip and we talk about it here - I think there may be more clips to talk about with your matching ideas for this female & infant.

  Posted October 18, 2015 5:05 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  I am not 100% sure, but hope a bit that they are different chimps as I think the damage of the left ear is different, the face of DL11Female5 (and the one of her matching proposals) is a bit wider, she has a grayer beard and bigger nostrils and the eye mask of her infant is not that dark. I try to write a posting to open a new discussion about that later.

  Posted October 18, 2015 6:18 PM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  ok...for the moment we have Tyra (Female16 + ACP0006m8z )

  beautiful female with a beautiful name 😃

  Posted October 19, 2015 5:15 AM

• by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

  Thank you all for letting me name her - very much appreciated!! And sorry for the confusion about the damaged ear. I did not read @jwidness entry properly... maybe because I had a challenging Sunday - trying to speak French all the time 😛

  Posted October 19, 2015 11:09 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

  I hope we get the infant named soon...

  Posted October 20, 2015 7:07 AM

• by Snorticus

  I was re-running Tyra ACP0006m8z dated 10-15-2012 - her right ear is rimmed with sunlight (just like the left ear is) and it appears to also have a cut in it here.

  

  Here is Tyra 12 days later in ACP0006cfx on 10-27-12 at 18:08 and her right ear to compare and I don't really see any cut here. I agree that these are both Tyra but that ear healed quite quickly.

  

  Both Tyra clips have a white spot in the center of her left ear on the side closest to her eye and this + all the other similarities convince me it's her.

  

  So, in clips before 10-27-12 we may see a female with a cut right ear that could possibly be her though she was originally described as having an intact right ear. Anyway - didn't we discuss at some point there being more than one female chimp with damage to the ears?

  Posted October 21, 2015 2:38 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  this is very interesting...

  I think what you see in Tyra´s right ear is only a branch behind her ear, which appears to be a cut because of the light. During the entire video, that is the only second where it looks like a cut. Look here:

  

  Besides, I think if that was a cut, it looks too deep and healed to be completely round and intact only 12 days later...what do you think?

  Posted October 21, 2015 5:00 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  She is soooo prety 😃

  

  Posted October 21, 2015 5:02 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  We need to have Tyra´s infant named, and @loisendaan didn´t reply. @AnLand proposed @Boleyn to name the infant in case @loisendaan didn´t show up, as she put so much effort into this match (very nice of @AnLand 😃 ).

  What do you think @Boleyn?

  Posted October 21, 2015 5:10 AM

• by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

  Yes, I think too this is very kind of @AnLand and a great honour for me, thanks!
  She sent me a message yesterday which I've just read. In return I asked her if she would like to name the infant because she found the second Tyra series. Can we pls. wait until this evening for @AnLand 's answer?

  Posted October 21, 2015 12:39 PM

• by Boleyn moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  @Snorticus if you zoom in on the picture you can see a little irregulatary in the right ear, almost the same as in the left but not as strongly developped. I'm not sure if it is a cut though. Maybe it's just the natural shape of her ears?

  

  to make it easier to see I did a quick Photoshop edit of the pic:

  

  Posted October 21, 2015 12:47 PM

• by AnLand moderator

  So, @Boleyn, what's her/his name? Come on!

  Posted October 21, 2015 3:57 PM

• by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

  ok, I've got green light from @AnLand Thanks a lot!!
  I would like to name Tyra's infant "Toby". This should work for both sexes I think. 😃

  Posted October 21, 2015 4:02 PM

• by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

  Wonderful!

  Posted October 21, 2015 4:38 PM

• by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

  First - love Toby for Tyra's infant, great to have another named chimp out of the many chimps at DL11!

  Second - how did you get that photoshopped detail shot to display? I don't know what the scientists think about this but there have been so many instances where discussing a detail is complicated by the limitation of only having the large 15 previews to post to refer to.

  Third - thanks for that view of her ear! It looks like it isn't perfectly rounded in shape.

  Posted October 21, 2015 5:49 PM

• by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  You can post images from other websites, flickr, etc. I think we have to be conscientious about usage polices of the sites involved, and also not imply any expectation of all volunteers. Anyway, good job @Boleyn on spotting that ear notch! And good name choices for this pair (finally)! 😃

  Posted October 21, 2015 7:53 PM

• by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

  My understanding was that she used Photoshop to isolate and arrow mark the image on her computer - so are you saying she posted the photoshopped detail to something like flickr and pulled it from that? There are lots of times when a blown up detail and arrow would make things easier for the ID discussion process for those who can and want to do that - not a requirement at all but a possible additional tool to choose to use. Would this be a protocol problem on the science end of things if we're only using it to discuss the images?

  Posted October 21, 2015 9:48 PM

• by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

  Yes, she edited it on her computer and uploaded to imageshack, then pulled from there. Can't speak to the protocol. There have been times I've thought of doing that, but didn't want to feel compelled (internally, all on me) to scrutinize every chimp to that level. 😃

  Posted October 22, 2015 12:07 AM

• by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

  I completely understand what you're saying. For me, an image example would save me having to use my subpar typing skills and I could show rather than tell what feature I think I see. This limitation has bugged me from the beginning as the previews often don't catch the detail I want to discuss. On the other hand, this is a time consuming work-around for sure. 😃

  Posted October 22, 2015 12:25 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator

  I love Toby , thanks @Boleyn 😃

  I don´t think the Photoshop issue could be a protocol problem for us, especially when it´s such a helping tool for identifying chimps (and actually that´s the main goal). But still I will ask for more opinions...

  Posted October 22, 2015 7:49 AM

• by MimiA scientist, moderator

  hi everyone, i think its fine to do as long as people use the resource in a limited way, we don't want 1000s of our images floating around without attribution.
  Also since we need to have written descriptions too, its important to stll type out what you see rather than rely on the scientists to come up with the descriptions all on their own from the images you post 😃

  Posted October 22, 2015 10:37 AM

• by Boleyn moderator

  oops! I wasn't aware that my photoshopping and uploading could be against the protocol. So I'm glad to hear that this shouldn't cause problems in the future.

  @ksigler put it all right: that's the way I've done it. @MimiA of course is also right when she askes for propper description.
  Alas my English sometimes lacks the perfect word - escpecially if you don't even know what the right expression in your own language would be and circumscription is also quite hard sometimes. So I'm quicker at manipulating an image than getting all the words set correctly 😃

  And how do they say? an image tells more than 1000 words 😉

  So here's my offer: if you would like to show a certain detail of a picture (it still has to be one out of the fifteen existing ones) I'm more than happy to help out. Just PM me your request and I'll look to it. I'm not so good at comparing the chimp videos - I often get confused when more than ten browser windows are open 😛 But with Photoshop I feel perfectly comfy.

  PS: glad you all like the names!

  Posted October 22, 2015 5:09 PM

• by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

  You expressed that perfectly, @Boleyn - I feel the same - that it's sometimes hard to explain an observation with only words, and easier sometimes if the words can be combined with an image. Thanks for offering your talents 😃

  Posted October 23, 2015 12:48 AM

• by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

  Thanks @Boleyn 😃

  Posted October 23, 2015 6:19 AM