Chimp & See Talk

Match proposal DL11Female 5 + 8 + 14 (+ 9) (and maybe 20)

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    We already talked a lot about this match before, so I will only put some screenshots together and explain why I think they are a match and others are rather not.

    It is a female adult with an infant, not too small anymore, not carried in the proposed sequences and curiously exploring. She is a dark chimp of average size for a female (neither very robust nor skinny) who has quite a belly in the sitting sequence (as DL11Female5). Her browline is straight without any dip in the middle. She has a slightly wider face than Tyra, a gray beard (white shimmering) and big nostrils. The grade of baldness is no easy to determine with the indirect light, but I think she has some thin hair on her forehead.

    Most notably, she has a damaged left ear. In some screenshots, a visible bigger gap in the mid section of the ear is visible (not only nicked like in Tyra and maybe also not like a clear cut like in DL11Female20 - but I am not sure here). The ear might just be rolled.

    DL11Female5

    enter image description here

    In this following picture it looks more like a cut in the upper ear:

    enter image description here

    Here the gap is best visible:

    enter image description here

    About matching her to DL11Female8 and 9, I already talked here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000g98

    DL11Female14:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    I will look into DL11Female20 a bit later. As I want to compare the infant in the earlier sequences on the termite mound.

    I don't see DL11Female19 in her as her nicked ear looks like Tyra's, her infant rides like Tyra's and has the same dark eye mask. I agree that the infant's head looks quite big for Tyra's infant, but I cannot see the other one here either.

    DL11Female19 with a very slightly nicked ear like Tyra and with infant:

    enter image description here

    DL11Infant13 (who belongs to DL11Female14):

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    DL11Female14 and DL11Female20. Face in DL11Female20 not really seen. Ear damage (left) clearly present. Might be the same damage - I am not 100% sure, but maybe 90-95%.

    Same back view (swelling and gray area and protuberance) as well as general body size and build (both videos within same month:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    There is no good picture of the infant (face is always in the dark). Most interesting videos - with a male adult: ACP0006te2 and ACP0006tdc (from a behavioral standpoint his interest would fit with the curiousity of the other infants.) The infant although is not seen with the female. @jwidness made a timeline for his termite mound sequence here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000hyo

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The protuberance with the gray area surrounding it is also seen in DL11Female5 (better in video: ACP0006kno )

    enter image description here

    and a bit in DL11Female9 (also slightly better in video: ACP0006kso )

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    ok, so if I understood it right, you are proposing two matches here:

    1. Female 5 + 8 + 9 + 14 + 20

    2. Female 19 + Tyra

    is it right?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    The main message concerning DL11Female19 is that she is not part of the other match for the reasons mentioned. And Tyra (also because of the mentioned reasons) would be a good match proposal for her, but I did not focus on that.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ok, now it´s clear.

    About Females 5 + 8 + 9 + 14 + 20, I agree that these ladies could be the same one. If I had to be a bit sceptical (sorry 😃 ), I would doubt about Female20, but only because of the video quality, her traits are barely visible (apart from her ear). But the others have the same ear cut (or fold), same body structure, same dark and long faces, and even the infants look very alike (same age).

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yes, DL11Female20 is a bit more difficult as we do not really see her face and also do not see her directly with the infant (that is only seen directly with the male chimp earlier). I guess it all depends from whether we can identify more females and can say for sure in the end that the damaged ear is a definite proof of her distinct identity.

    (I think, this is the same chimp, but can accept if she is excluded from this match.)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I'm also sure No 5+8+9+14 are the same. I made my little trick with the ears of Fem5 and Fem14 and this is definitely the same damaged ear:

    enter image description here

    I am also very sure about Inf4 and Inf8. There's the same scene where you can compare those two very well:

    Inf4 (belongs to Fem5)

    enter image description here

    and Inf 9 (belongs to Fem8)

    enter image description here

    Now to fem20: I'm pretty sure this is the same damaged ear as in 5 and 14, don't you think?

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey chicas 😃

    this is great! so, if we all agree, we have another match here: Female 5 + 8 + 9 + 14 + 20 with infants- I must say that if it was only up to me to be finding matches, I would leave Female 20 out, because of the reasons I already mentioned...but I trust you all and I rely on your good eyes and judgment.

    Who wants to name them?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Me! (Sorry, guys.) I propose Olive for the female and Tassilo for her youngster. Thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree that you are the one who should name them @AnLand...

    thanks!

    Just a curiosity, does Tassilo mean anything for you? I think that´s a male German name...wasn´t it a king of Bavaria? 😕

    Olive and Tassilo are beautiful names 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yes, Tassilo is somebody I like very, very much. 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    hear, hear... 😃 I like the names, @AnLand - classy and distinctive!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    hey @AnLand,

    I find your point very interesting:

    "...and can say for sure in the end that the damaged ear is a definite proof of her distinct identity"

    it looks very common to find damaged ears in chimps in the wild, in fact that´s one of our criteria when identifying them. These cuts and deformations usually caused by bites are generally more common in adult chimps (or sometimes juveniles too) becase of the fights.

    Some time ago, I was visiting a zoo in Germany, the Leintalzoo in Schwaigern ( http://www.tierpark-schwaigern.de ) which is supposed to hold the biggest group of chimps in Germany; 33 individuals, and they all seem to live harmoniously. Their eclosure is `not very small´ (for my taste, all the zoo enclosures are too small, if you think of the area dimensions where wild animals live naturally), and closed with the tradicional zoo metal fencing. My first thought when I heard about it and before going there, was that these chimps should have many scars and bites, especially in their ears and genitals, due to space stress. But to my surprise, I didn´t find one sigle ear cut in the whole group! and I was staring at them for hours!! Maybe I missed some of them, but the vast majority had their ears nicely round and intact. I asked the keeper, and he told me that as soon as there was a fight, they were automatically separated and as a consequence, they had no time to cause big damages. But still I find it interesting, because this group is always together, even at night when there is no keeper to separate them in case of conflict.

    sorry for this bore, I was just curious about why in the wild, in a natural environment with enough room to run away in case of chase, we find so many injured ears, while it´s absolutely not the case in a big chimps group kept in a completely closed cage with no chance to scape... 😕

    Thoughts?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    That is very intriguing story @NuriaM Did the keeper say how they actually managed to separate fighting chimps? Such powerful animals - I'm curious about what methods would be used to successfully intervene.
    Agree that zoos feel problematic for chimps in particular (and most other animals too).

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I imagine this is because the injuries you see in wild chimps are not necessarily because one chimp is attacking another chimp but rather because the jungle is a dangerous place. In zoos chimps are basically running away from one another in a giant room. In the forest there are spikey things everywhere, plus a lot of vertical falls and jumps and pokey stuff all over the place. Plus if a chimp is injured in the zoo the vet sees them and patches them up.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    Cool names for them both!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Just brainstorming... Could it be that the fights don't get as vicious in that zoo? I don't know a lot about chimp behavior, but it seems that if there were fights, they would be more like "domestic disputes" than due to threat or competition. The population is restricted, with (I imagine) few newcomers or outsiders to threaten the social structure. Plenty of food and water, and no predators. Plus, maybe they're conditioned by the zookeepers to fight less to avoid the intervention?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    @Snorticus, I have no idea how the keepers handle the fights, I imagine they use a hose?? I will ask them if when I go again 😉

    that´s a good reasoning, @ksigler , I thought of this possibility too, in fact it´s the only reason that seems to be most rational to me... I think that the population stability simply doesn´t give them so many reasons to fight, and besides they somehow learn not to do it to avoid the keeper´s involvement.

    @MimiA , thanks for your ideas. I see your point, but still I think that the cuts that we see in the wild chimps are too deep to be cased by spikey things. I am not a vet., but I have seen many ear cuts (in shelter dogs) and when they are due to bites and are so deep, even if you treat them fast and suture them, when it heals you will still see a scar on a round ear...and this is not the case!!! if you like, look at the pictures in their website, it´s amazing 😃

    Thank you all guys, this is what I call team work 😉

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I think you are underestimating how amazing medical intervention is. Even with the smallest of cuts, without antibiotics things become infected and very scarring. Our field teams have some impressive scars from tropical ulcers and the like that started as simple bug bites.
    I don't think trying to understand this from a chimp behaviour perspective is the way to go since evidence points towards zoo chimps being more, not less, agressive than wild chimps.
    When we think of why chimps fight, all those reasons (save 1) exist in zoos. Males are most aggressive to females when they are fertile, and males are aggressive to one another when they are vying for power - both of these scenarios exist in zoos, young teenage males will test boundaries, older males will lose power.
    The only thing you don't have in zoo chimps is intergroup encounters but I don't think this is where most of the scars we see are coming from, those are very rare events and often without survivors.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Really interesting this entire discussion!

    Out of curiosity I googled some pictures from the Zoo in Basel here in Switzerland which is quite famous for their primates for decades already. One single female has a bad ear. All the other look just fine. The oldest chimp, Eros, who died last year became 52 years old. In his last picture his ears don't show any sign of a scar. Only the right one looks a bit "stretched". I really wonder what they are doing that the chimps don't hurt each other. Could it be they put something in their food to keep them peaceful? I don't want to impute this to anybody in any zoo but still, it's very strange.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    oh, ok...

    so these big cuts (sometimes even an entire ear is missing) could have started with a small scratch which got infected? I didn´t think of this possibility, it makes more sense now...

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    hi @Boleyn, thanks for your research in Basel 😃

    I am afraid that we will never know if they put something in their food to keep them calm...let´s say no 😉

    in any case, I guess if I want to know more about it I will have to do some zoo research 😃

    thanks guys!!

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    My feeling here is that its not the chimps that are more peaceful/calm in zoos but 1) they get treated when they get hurt and 2) they do not need to compete over food so in general there may be less petty conflicts 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks @MimiA that makes a lot of sense! 😃

    Posted