Chimp & See Talk

Mom with infant and two similarly sized juveniles

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Maybe just coincidence, but @mlsalgado found this sequence of a mom with a fairly large dorsal infant and two similarly-sized juveniles, which reminded me of another set found by @tweger two days ago.

    New set: ACP00071au ACP00071av ACP00071aw ACP00071ax

    Mom has grey rear (almost no pink at all), with grey balder spots on each hip. Dorsal infant is fairly large, the two juveniles seem to be about the same size, but unclear if they could both be hers.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Unfortunately no face views, except a bit of the infant, but mom's rear seems fairly unique, and as I mentioned, what struck me is the possibility that this could be one family -- the 4 of them together is a distinctive feature, especially with no other potential moms in sight.

    Here's the old set I was reminded of: ACP0006rny ACP0006rnz

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Again not great face shots, but a mom with a fairly large dorsal infant and two similarly-sized juveniles. As an added feature, the infant adopts the same odd sideways riding posture as the other set in the last few steps before going out of view.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Well I was clearly too hasty in posting, because I found the next video after the ACP00071au set and it in fact contains more chimps:

    ACP00071ba ACP00071bb ACP00071bc ACP00071bd

    There are unfortunately no timestamps on these sets, but I believe you can see the mom with dorsal infant and two juveniles way in the background, so I think it must be right after the other set. We have a smaller juvenile and a bald mom with a ventral infant (carrying what seem to be tools in her mouth). This doesn't really make the picture clearer, since now it looks like the party is two moms (one with dorsal infant and one with ventral infant), and three juveniles, two of which are similar in size.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    (As a side note, I can confirm that the videos before and after the ACP0006rny set do not contain chimps, it seems to really be mom with infant and two juveniles)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Very nice, thanks @jwidness because these sequences exactly fit the pattern for the chimps I've found yesterday.
    I know you can't see too much in the pictures but the videos are still quite significant.

    ACP00070fv ACP00070fx

    First we have an adult that just disappears behind the termite mound. From size I'm quite sure she's a female, no swelling though. Does this indicate that there could be a ventral infant? Unfortunately you can't see if she actually carries one. But there's no dorsal infant. Then we have three juveniles and after this kindergarden comes the female with the gray back and the dorsal infant:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Maybe it's also no coincidence that @depuppy3 's thread Chimp Juve Playtime also contains three juveniles and a considerably smaller chimp which certainly is still a dorsal infant. Mom sits close by and watches that the older ones are not too jaunty with the little one. I can't see the second mother there but I doubt that one mother has four young ones at a time 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Nice detective work @Boleyn !

    I think your set of ACP00070fv ACP00070fx must be the same party as ACP0006rny because they are the same date (7/6/2013), just hours apart (8:37am and 11:54am)

    As for the juve playtime set from @depuppy3 -- it's actually from the same time as another previously found set:

    6/26/2013 15:09 ACP00072fs ACP00072fu ACP00072fw ACP00072fy

    6/26/2013 15:10 ACP00072fg ACP00072fh ACP00072fi ACP00072fj (juve playtime)

    It looks to me like another mom is sitting in the back in the shadows, so I would actually say the videos show 2 moms, 1 large infant, 1 smaller juvenile, and 2 larger juveniles -- could again be the same party as on 7/6/2013!

    I did some more hunting and the set I posted at the top of the thread (starting with ACP00071au) is likely from late January or early February 2013, but could potentially be the same individuals as the party composition seems the same.

    This is getting interesting!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Oh dear, I found more information which makes things less clear again. Your videos ACP00070fv ACP00070fx at 8:37 on 7/6/2013 actually have other videos before and after them.

    ACP00070gd ACP00070ge ACP00070gf ACP00070gg 7/6/2013 8:36 DL11Female6 DL11Infant5 and a large juvenile -- found and previously discussed by @AnLand (side note, I agree with the match of DL11Infant5 to DL11Infant6)

    ACP00070fv ACP00070fx 7/6/2013 8:37 mom(?), large infant, 2 juveniles, mom w/dorsal infant

    ACP00070fh 7/6/2013 8:42 large juvenile

    So from this whole group we have: a mom, infant and large juvenile; a mom(?), infant, 2 juveniles, mom w/dorsal infant; and a large juvenile. I still think it's possible a subset of this group is the group we see at 11:54am later the same day in ACP0006rny, but it's not clear to me exactly what's going on...

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Now who's the detective here? 😃
    Just one addition to your list:

    ACP00070fh 7/6/2013 8:42 large juvenile AND again a mom with a dorsal infant. It just hops up her back before they disappear.

    That's one cute scene by the way.

    All in all it's not more confusing I think. It just shows that there are quite a number of chimps at DL11 which is fine for me. The confusing thing is just to sort them all out 😮

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Grrrrrr...the videos don´t seem to want to play!!!

    sorry, for the moment I can´t be of big help 😦

    but you are doing an amazing job... as soon as I can see the videos, I will check this post deeply, but for the moment I think it´s not a bad idea to give a temporary ID to the lady in your first set ( ACP00071au ...) because of her distinctive rear...

    I hope it can work out soon for me...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    now it´s all sorted out...

    hmmm...I must say that this is a quite confusing situation. This site has lots of families, and identifying juveniles and infants alone is quite hard. But I do agree with you that ACP0006my could be a match to DL11Female21 and her infant. I didn´t manage to take a nice shot of ACP0006my rear, but in the sec. 7 of ACP0006mz you can see the bald spot on her left hip.

    We need further opinions...

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Just for the fun and for discussion: a female with a ventral infant (November 18, 2012) and two similar sized juveniles. Decent pictures. ACP0006at9 and ACP0006ata Female has a quite flat head, a gray beard, gray legs and lower back. Most comparable for the footage already discussed here with ACP0006rny and ACP0006rnz, I think.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Love them. Just like this.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    they are nice, you're right and I'm quite sure that this is the same family. These videos are from November 2012 so it may well be that the infant switched from ventral to dorsal in the time between then and June 2013. Nice find as well.

    I wonder why there are still chimp videos popping up which are not tagged? I haven't seen a chimp since over two weeks now but keep getting the videos of other animals which have been classified by many people over and over again. Strange!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    yes, I wonder why I didn´t give them an ID 😕 ...sorry for that.

    I agree with you that they are very likely to be the same family. I think now I am going to be the one encouraging to consider them as a match:

    Female21 + infant + juveniles

    ACP0006rny + ACP0006rnz

    ACP0006at9 + ACP0006ata (thanks @AnLand 😃 )

    I will give the last two ones a temporary ID if we someone disagrees with this match.

    these are the female´s rears: in the second picture I see a very similar rear as in pic one (pic three can´t tell)

    one one one

    female´s face: same long, greyish face and body build.

    one one

    and juveniles: I have the feeling that in all three cases one juvenile is slightly bigger than the other:

    one one one one

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    yipeeeeeh 😃

    @NuriaM with my remark about untagged chimp videos I meant untagged by users who probably found them but did not tag them with #chimp etc. That's what I think is strange and let's me think we still might have not seen all videos of DL11 but instead are seeing the same videos over and over again. So it's more a technical problem.

    Do I make sense??

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes, I saw it too, but I still wonder why I missed ACP0006rny and ACP0006rnz 😦

    so, we need FOUR NAMES!!!!!

    @Boleyn, @jwidness, @AnLand and...I think @mlsalgado found the ACP00071au sequence and @tweger found the ACP0006rny one, right? what do you think, who should propose the names?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I have my doubts about DL11Female21: a) she is much darker than the other ones. It is harder to see for ACP0006rny, but this female in ACP0006at9 has definitely grayer legs. b) we do not see anything from her and @jwidness noted that other chimps are following in this sequence. The juveniles might be hers or not. I know that we cannot sure about this for the other videos as well, but it looks to me more convincing. I would suggest to note the possible matching of her to the others, but wait until we have all videos and can be sure that there is only one female with three kids in that age range.

    @Snorticus also tagged tonight this video ACP00072ds of a female with small dorsal infant and two juveniles following. She also has gray legs. There is unfortunately not much more visible. Age range of the kids would not contradict, although the size difference (that is expected of course) between the juveniles is much more obvious here.

    enter image description here

    That said: I am happy to waive my "naming rights" to others (e.g. to @tweger or @msalgado).

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thank you @AnLand,

    I agree with you with waiting a bit...it´s always worth waiting for more evidence to come, before messing things up 😃

    I see your point on her gray legs...still I see many similarities...yes, let´s wait.

    Sure @tweger and @msalgado will appreciate it 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    #DL11Female26 / #DL11Infant21

    #DL11Juv16

    #DL11Juv17

    😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thanks for asking @NuriaM !

    I'm okay with @AnLands proposal as well as I'm not sure if it really is the same female. Maybe there are two females with two juveniles or the juveniles are not siblings and just like to hang out together, sometimes with one mom sometimes with the other. Could that be possible?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    of course; it often happens that youngs not only stay with mom, but also with the aunts.

    If we all have some doubts, it is for me a solid argument for waiting until claiming a match...or not 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP0006tit (they exit right in ACP0006tiu and no other chimps follow in the two clips after they exit, though some may have preceded them)

    Another clip of family of four - I think there are at least two families of four in Dry Lake. This female has a gray lower back and light legs, two similarly sized juveniles and a ventral infant and looks more like the female in ACP0006at9 Not well seen in previews better seen in the video - a juvenile runs ahead in the bamboo and 2nd juvenile follows.

    family of four

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hi guys,

    as (if I am right), we have 9 different videos (or video sequences) of four member families...and only some of them could be added to the propective chimps list, I have decided to make a post only with four member families, just to keep them together. I think it´s better this way in order to keep track of them (at least for me 😃 ). I hope it helps a bit.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I've just seen the new thread with the families, it's great and certainly helps to sort them out. 😃

    This video here ACP0006ot5 shows also a family of four with a female with gray back and legs carrying a ventral infant and two juveniles. However I'm not sure whether it is the same family as Female26 because the videos are half a year apart. Again the question of how long the infant would be carried ventral.

    I'm also not sure if it's ok to post it here or if we are supposed to add all the fitting families to the new thread? Or are you doing this, @NuriaM ?
    thanks!

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks for this @Boleyn 😃

    I don´t mind if you post it here or together with the othe families; I didn´t lock that thread, so that we can all participate...if you don´t want to post them together, I wil do it, no problem. For me it´s just important to keep track of them 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks @NuriaM I think you ought to include the new videos with families of 4 in your first original post to keep them all together, if that's ok with you. We could then start writing our own posts for matching proposals.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Sorry @Boleyn, which new videos and original post do you mean 😕 ?

    do you mean ACP0006ot5 and the `4 member families´ post? (I´m sorry, it´s Friday... 😛 )

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    yes, that's what I meant, @NuriaM. Sorry I did not post it via respond to your previous comment - should have. My Thursdays are obviously as weird as your Fridays 😮

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    😉

    Posted