SUGGESTIONS TO THE LIST OF POSSIBLE MATCHES
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Hey guys,
with an attempt to sort out a bit this site, I am starting a new thread to focus on our already proposed matches...let´s see if we can shelf some of them.
I think it would be useful if we start discussing about one possible match and don´t go to the next one until we all come to a conclusion (we give a name or we discard the match possibility).
I hope it helps 😃
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
FAMILIES
1. DL11Female3 / DL11Infant3 - DL11Female6 / DL11Infant5 - DL11Female10 / DL11Infant9
What about them?
Despite the terrible quality 😦 I see that Female10 has bigger nostrils than the others. Besides, Female6 has sort of a white spot on her left hind leg that I can´t see in Female3 (Female´s10 left hind leg is not clearly visible).
Female6 left hind leg:
Posted
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by
Snorticus
Having looked at Fem6 & Inf5 for a while this afternoon I would lean toward taking them out of the comparison as the pixelation and the short time on camera doesn't give us a chance to see many details. Also - I think that AnLand noted elsewhere about the contrasting behavior of the infants. Inf3 and Inf9 are both rather placid and slow moving infants, whereas Inf5 seems rather spunky and adventurous. I think Inf5 has smaller feet and skinnier legs than the other two.
Fem3 and Fem10 we get better views of their faces. Both are balding with a prominent shiny center mark on the head, large oval nostrils & a flattened nose, upper lip under the nose that bows out. Their ears are set high on their heads and their body shapes are similar.
My thinking is that Fem3 & Inf3 are a match to Fem10 & Inf9.
ACP00078rh Fem10 note the upper lip and large oval nostrils
ACP00070na Fem3 also note her upper lip and large oval nostrils
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to Snorticus's comment.
I was thinking of the nostrils size (female 3 + 10) being the result of the light, but actually their faces shape are very similar, head baldness too...
I would leave Female6 out as well...it is too unclear for my taste.
I think we are getting closer now...THANKS!!
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
I totally think they are a match (w/o Fem6), but as I said earlier, I am not sure whether they are not Tyra and Toby. The ear (as the easiest trait) is not visible against the dark fur. The infant is riding in that special position (I don't want to imply that it is so unique, but we've seen it with Toby and other traits fit as well. It supports, not more.) There is the white spot I talked about earlier, the long face, baldness, body build ... I am not sure whether I would make the match (too risky), but I could not exclude it yet.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
hmmm...really? I can´t see any white spot on Tyra´s left hind leg, where did you see it?
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
About Female6, my only reason to exclude her is because the low quality of the video makes it too unclear to claim a match...
thoughts?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
Hi @NuriaM,
if I understand your remarks here right: a) there is a white spot on the leg of Fem6. It is not seen in Fem3 or Fem10. b) you want to exclude Fem6 from the match because of the quality of the video. - But, you want to base the matching of Fem3 and Fem10 (and to Tyra or not to Tyra) on the one trait that is only seen in the female that will not be part of the match? I think, she should be part of the match, in that case the trait is relevant or she is not part of the match and we have to look for other distinguishable traits. Either way is fine, I think. Or do I misunderstand your hesitation?
My point is that at the moment I could not exclude that Fem3 and Fem10 are Tyra. I cannot see something that they are not the same chimp taking in account that Tyra is very close to the camera and the others are very far away. All traits I can see are consistent with Tyra. Did we see other infants riding on moms back this way? Maybe we could look for this additionally.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
well, you said: There is the white spot I talked about earlier...I was just wondering where where you saw it in Tyra, only that 😃
if we all agree that Fem3 and Fem10 are a match, then we took a step forward 😃
if you like, we could name these two ladies and then discuss about Fem6, Tyra and the new lady. this way we can sort it a bit out...what do you think?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
Ah, I see. The white spot is on the head of Fem10 and on Tyra`s. It's in Tyra's posting where I tried to match her to Fem10 (and with that to Fem3). I still think everything I said there is true (in my eyes). And I still see that match. We got away from this after I found the other video from Tyra that made the match very easy and pressure to name our beautiful lady was very high from all sides.
I just copy&paste here:
"It does not make the situation any clearer, but the female first described here has a very small white spot on her head (on the right side high on her forehead). DL11Female10 has the same white spot and an infant (age fits) that rides on her back the same way as the infant here. ACP00078rh (and before). She also have the same longish nipples. The left ear is not really seen, so we don't know about the damaged ear. She is a proposed match to DL11Female3.
Edit: one more point in favor of this matching proposal is the face mask/coloration of the infant. The eye mask is very dark and his/her eyes glistening strangely in both sequences (female and infant first described here and DL11Female10 with Infant9)."
But it is only my opinion that Fem3 and Fem10 are Tyra and I've been wrong about matches many times before. So, go ahead!
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
now I get it...sorry 😃
we need more opinions...!!!
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
Regarding a white spot on Tyra and Fem10's heads.. I see some white debris on both, but in different places:
Tyra in ACP0006cfx (click to enlarge)
DL11Fem10 in ACP00078rg (click to enlarge)
And in DL11Fem10, I see a thin patch on the right side of her head:
ACP00078rg (click to enlarge)
But I don't see where Tyra has that same extra thin or bald spot in any of her clips. @AnLand, can you post a clip or still that shows what you see?
I do think the pair look very similar. Size, age, color, body shape, mother's U-shaped bald spot. But nothing (yet) is unique to convince me that they couldn't be someone else.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
thanks @ksigler 😃
I think dirt doesn´t really probe much...
I agree with you that they look very similar. I must say that @AnLand made me think much about theses ladies and I see her point.
I agree with Female10 , Female3 and Tyra being a match, but I would still exclude Female6, because of the reasons I already mentioned. What do you think?
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I missed that pair before, sorry. I don't think Female6 and Infant5 are the same at all. Their sequence is 8-9 months later than Tyra's, but Infant5 looks younger than Toby. And I think Tyra has thicker/darker fur.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
ok...it means that we have another match here?
Female10 + Female3 + Tyra? 😃
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Yes, it seems like all are in favor of the Fem10/Fem3/Tyra match. 😃
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
gracias @ksigler 😃
tagged.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
ok guys...next:
FAMILIES
2. DL11Female1 / DL11Female12
they both have sort of squared chins, and their head baldness look similar too...despite the Female1 ´s video quality. What do you think?
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Um, maybe it's just me, but I don't see the resemblance. I don't see the pale lips that Fem12 has (and they do look pale pink, not just white from the food) on Fem1. Also, Fem12's bald head is very light, but not in a reflective sort of way. Maybe she got some of the white powdery stuff on her head... but, Fem1's head doesn't look the same to me. And Fem1 also has an irregularity on the left ear that I also don't see on Fem12.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
...and I see their left ear slightly different too 😕 :
female1 (better seen in the video, sec.11): does she have a cut at the top of her left ear that we missed? or is it just an illusion?
female12: no cut.
...or am I being a bit fussy here? 😛
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I don't think it's an illusion, and I don't think you're being fussy... if we can see both ears for comparison, and they look different, that's just the way it is. 😃
A few other observations from looking at them further:
- Fem12 has good amount of gray around her muzzle/chin, which Fem1 does not have.
- Fem1 has a small round scar on the back of her right wrist that you can see when it's fully extended to the ground:
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
you are absolutely right!!! I missed that scar too 😦
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
The experience with the males at CD-8 shows that scars at the wrist are really difficult to identify later again as the wrist (with skin and fur) is moving too much while walking. At least then we were not able to agree on matches based on it and I always questioned myself whether I see the scarred wrist or not.
But it is a trait of course and I would be happy to find her again.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
thanks @AnLand, interesting...
I think we should exclude this match anyway. While it´s true for me that they look quite similar, I´m not sure if I see similarities because there are only few `clear´ images like these in this site (well, Female1 is not so clear, but she comes close to the camera), and I was so enthusiastic that I saw a match 😃
But I see in Female1 that her face looks a bit depigmented under her left eye, and Female12´s face is actually darker. Too many doubts 😦
What do you think? Shall we go ahead with the next candidate?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
I know, we kind of moved on from DL11Female6 and her youngster, but after @Dana23 commented on ACP00070gf I paid the first time attention to that video (no traits are seen but it is the video following the DL11Female6 video and is labeled like this). Does anyone besides me also sees how the infant is sitting on its mother back? We still did see this only with Toby (and in ACP0006ep6 where I think, it's Tyra and Toby). Just to note that.
(And yes, @Dana23 is right, there are more chimps that these two. At least one more juvenile.)
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
If you watch the full sequence ( ACP00070gd | ACP00070ge | ACP00070gf | ACP00070gg ), you see Fem6 and Inf5 enter the area, and get a good view of them both. Inf5 is much younger-looking in July 2013 than Toby in Oct 2012, and Fem6 has the lighter back and white spot on her thigh that we don't see in Tyra. When they leave, Inf5 climbs on Fem6's back, laying flat down as we often see. But then it reaches up to grab some branches as they go behind the mound and down the path, leading to Inf5 sitting upright as they walk away. To me, that says that sitting upright isn't strictly a personality trait, or if it is, it's not unique to just one young chimp. Sorry to seem disagreeable about this, I'm not trying to. 😦
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Shall we go ahead with the next matching possibilities? @AnLand, do you want to discuss more about Female6?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
No, we do not need to discuss Female6 further. I consider the video quality to bad to match here anything. I just wanted to note what I've seen. And I agree with @ksigler that the infant is grabbing after something and that might be the reason for the erected position. Let's move on. Who's on your list?
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
ok...thanks 😃
next:
3. DL11Female7/DL11Infant6 - DL11Female17/DL11Infant16
ACP00072fs DL11Female7/DL11Infant6
ACP0006tfc DL11Female17/DL11Infant16
this one is really tricky 😃
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I could go either way on the match of DL11Female7/DL11Infant6 to DL11Female17/DL11Infant16 -- personally, I'd prefer to revisit it later. Sorry if this is out of turn, but I'd rather support the proposed match of DL11Female7/DL11Infant6 to DL11Female6/DL11Infant5 for now.
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Maybe it's the difference in light, but it looks like Fem7 has a large square head, with a prominent gray bushy brow and gray beard. Fem17's head looks more average shaped, with a less conspicuous brow and beard.
Need more time with the match that @jwidness proposes.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
sure we can discuss it...
Female6 has a small spot on her left leg that is not possible to find in Female7...it´s a pity, because with such poor quality videos, those traits help a lot. But anyway, this is a VERY fair argument, but when Female7 stands up (about sec. 13), you can slightly see her knee...spot or light???? Or mabye I´m starting to see things...
But I see that their faces are same colored (quite dark with some greyish beard) and shaped.
The infants are same big as well 😕
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
4. DL11Female15 / DL11Female18
as for these two ladies, I think the only argument to match them was because of their back patches, but we already discussed about it. I don´t think this is a solid argument...if I had to find one more reason, I would talk about their ears. They look quite protruding in both cases, but again this is a very poor argument. In my opinion, this match should be excluded :[
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I have to admit that I do not see anything for Female15 (too far away, bad quality video and overall view on body and face is bad) and so could never really defend my thoughts. So, at least I will keep out of this matching. I just cannot say.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
thanks for your opinion @AnLand,
let´s wait and see what the others think ;]
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
hey guys, I guess we should exclude this match and go ahead with the next one :}
5. Tyra and Toby possible matches
ACP0007a95 / ACP0007a96 / ACP000781n
I can´t see Tyra´s left ear in any of them 😦
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I think after @ksigler pointed out that ACP000781n has two infants we all agreed it's not Tyra. I think ACP0007a95 probably is Tyra, but I'm not 100% sure.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in ACP0007a95 I can only see Tyra´s u-shaped balding part on her midhead. Her left ear and brow are impossible to figure out (or at least I can´t) 😦
I´m not sure if this midhead trait alone is conclusive...
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
do you think we can move to the next one?
6. ACP0006ldb- DL11Female18##
this one I'm not 100% sure (as usual in this site 😄), but I think they both are quite alike and they have a similar right ear shape. As @AnLand said, these two videos might not be enough for matching.
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I had yesterday ACP0006ldb again for classification, thought briefly about Tyra (because of the position of the infant, its dark eye mask and the female's rather narrow face), but excluded this because of the very long nipple that Tyra does not have and after consulting the prospective chimps list was going to propose a match to DL11Female18 - only to discover that I already did this. So, yes, I am still on board. Droopy lip, ears, slightly gray beard. Much is not seen, but all points in the same direction. Unique although is only the very long nipple, I think.
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
Okay, I thought about this yesterday too and after looking into the spreadsheet, I am suggesting that we are also looking into the female in ACP0006lgq (seen with a big ventral infant and an older juvenile in ACP0006lgr). She also has a long nipple (it's the same nipple, only different perspective), baldness, gray beard, a droopy lip and a white patch on the back as DL11Female18. While looking at the spreadsheet, I think DL11Female18 arrives with both kids here ACP0006vao, spent some time, and later bring another tool, that explains why her infant is already (or still) there in ACP0006v9s and ACP0006v9t. I know that infant looks quite big, but it looks big (too big for a ventrally carried infant) in all videos.
(I am not sure whether the difference in the swellings is possible though.) Just thinking aloud.
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
I don't see the same back pattern on the female in ACP0006lgq as Female18 (both the bald spot and the swelling area), and if she's not the same female, then I think the droopy nipple is not necessarily unique. I don't think that has to mean that the female from ACP0006ldb isn't Female18, but I don't feel like I can be totally sure either way with such a short glimpse of her. I also thought maybe the female from ACP0006ldb has a grey hip area (possibly grey legs?), which wouldn't fit with Female18 either 😕
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
I see the same back pattern with the white (hairless) spots. And even if we think, as @NuriaM suggested before, that these are not permanent patches but caused by a too heavy infant carried ventrally, between both occasion are only little more than two weeks. The hair could not regenerate in this short time frame. If it's her in the latest video ( ACP0006ldb ) and she now is carrying the infant dorsally, we might not see the spots in some months.
The short time frame of all videos - when we see her swelling - is half a normal cycle and made me think whether we see minimum and maximum swelling in her. Maybe it just is not that big under any circumstances in her. But I am not clear about the variations here. We've seen already a lot of interindividual variation and but so much intraindividual variation of different females. The big differences in Maggie-Ollie come to my mind, but during pregnancy and postpartum a lot of other hormonal things are going on. So, I am not sure.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
I thought of ACP0006ldb grey hips too. I think her rear doesn´t match to the other two females rears 😕
I don´t get to see which nipple is the long one in any of the three females; right, left or both? This is how I see it (just an opinion):
Female18: both nipples long
ACP0006ldb: left nipple long.
ACP0006lgq: left nipple long, but not as long as the Female18´s and ACP0006ldb´s
As for ACP0006lgq female, it might be the angle, but I have the feeling that her belly is wider?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
So, the swellings exclude each other even while cycling? (It's a question, I just don't know.)
For the nipple: I can only say something about the left one. It is long and I don't really see size differences. I am not sure whether I see the right nipple in any of them. So, I only refer to the long left nipple.
For body size in ACP0006lgq (as the others have quite lean legs): I cannot really see from this perspective what her body is and where it is more the infant. In my opinion, she has also slimmer legs. The hips are normal and the belly not really well seen with the little one hanging.
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
Sorry if I was unclear -- I think you're totally right that the changes in the swellings themselves shouldn't exclude the match. I was more referring to the area around the swelling. I think the bump just above the swelling looks a bit more prominent on Female18 than on the female from ACP0006lgq, and the female from ACP0006lgq looks like she has well-defined oval ischial callosities, while Female18 does not. I also think Female18's lower back looks generally somewhat paler, though I'm not sure if that's due to lighter hair color, sparser hair, or maybe just lighting.
I would also say that although nipple size is a great feature to look out for (that I have personally been neglecting), nipples can change in appearance through the duration of lactation and afterward, so we should just be a little careful, like for swellings. A female that has long nipples in one video may have shorter ones as her infant is weaned. That shouldn't matter over the course of a few weeks though, just something to keep in mind.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
thanks @jwidness, you are right. Changing traits like swellings, back patches or nipples should be used just as supporting arguments.
I think we should distinguish changing from distinctive traits (or temporary and permanent, however you want to call them 😃 ).
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I am not sure, what you are saying here. I totally agree with all that has been said and by everybody. Yes, there are temporary and permanent traits. But all videos discussed here are within four weeks if I see that right. Which of my arguments is wrong here?
I do understand that we are not considering them as a match, right?
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
I mean, I am fine with it. But most of the traits discussed here - even the temporary ones discussed here - would most probably not change of the course of four weeks.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
sorry @AnLand, I was talking more in general than about this match proposal 😕
your arguments are : swellings, nipples and back pattern, right? if they support what you mentioned about their baldness, gray beard, a droopy lip, then I would agree that they could be a match.
I am more confident about Female18 and ACP0006ldb being a match (baldness, beard + lip), and not so much about ACP0006lgq; I am not sure, but something tells me that she is a bit more robust, but as I said, it might be the angle. Besides, I don´t get to see her face properly 😦
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Hey guys,
just to go ahead with this match, I support it (Female18 and ACP0006ldb),
but if you have doubts about it, we can go to our next case: Ilsa, Bohe and Juv5
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
That's great - and it's actually a new chimp family, not an addition to a known match!
As I think, I noted first the similarity between these two after a remark from @ksigler, I could participate in naming and would like to ask @Dana23 to name one of the two on my behalf. Would that be ok? I don't know who else want to name and whether he or she has preferences for the mom or her kid ...
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
Not to ruin the match here, but I'm not 100% sold on it. I still think the female from ACP0006ldb may have a grey lower back/hips, which wouldn't match Female18. As for the face, I just don't see it clearly enough, and we have multiple bald females to sort out. My preference would be to revisit the match later, sorry.
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
If you look for instance at this screenshot, you see in my opinion that the top and back of her head as well as her back are somehow lighter and to the same degree. I only can see a slight light effect. Neither her back nor her legs are visible. Also, the lighter shine could come from the swelling direct beneath as an additional reflection.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
thanks @jwidness, I see your point, but I agree with @AnLand that this might be just a light effect.
Maybe we can encourage @ksigler to help us with this 😛
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Nothing like being put on the spot to motivate one into action. 😄 I actually agree with this match. In addition to the baldness, she has a longish face, the right ear is flat or folded at the top, the brow is straight, the chin has white hair, the bottom lip droops, and the nipples are very long. The lightness on the back vs. swelling is hard to judge in 6ldb, and it would be nice to see more of the infant in both sequences. However, the combination of all the other traits + the presence of the single large infant seems unique. It's possible that she is also a match for someone else already on the prospective list, but either way, I'm pretty confident that these two clips are the same pair.
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
Having looked back at the thread that Boleyn linked in the thread about Fem22/23/28 ( http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000idc), I see that there are a number of pending matches to Fem18. Do you think we could look at those too if we're talking about her now?
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
It does seem that the female in 6ldb has a single large infant, but the discussion going on Fem18 is that she may have 2 kids -- the infant plus Juv12.
Posted
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by
ksigler
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
Fair enough. I will have to revisit that discussion on another day and see where it went. If she has more offspring, I would cast a bigger/different net when looking for potential matches, but it doesn't make me see less of a match between the 2 females here. I just think these 2 look very much alike.
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
We see very little in ACP0006ldb of the female and her offspring. I also think that the older juvenile that is seen with Fem18 is actually hers and could be with her in ACP0006ldb. In the scene here are more chimps - and we do not see the one who triggered the camera for instance in ACP0006lda.
And I base more confidence in physical traits. Ilsa and Bohe are at least seen once (confirmed) without the older juvenile that seems - judging from all other videos - belong to her (so Juv5 and potential matches).
The other matches to Fem18 are the ones with the white patches and I understand that @NuriaM do not want to base a match on these for the reasons she mentioned without additional support from other features. Do you want to revisit that discussion and pause a match based on other traits?
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
If we all coincide with Female18 and ACP0006ldb being a match, we could perhaps go ahead with naming them and then we could discuss about the others, agree?
what do you think, @jwidness?
Posted
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by
jwidness
moderator
My feelings on the female from 6ldb haven't changed. We don't have a good view of her face, we don't have a good view of her body size/build, we don't have a good view of her rear, and we don't have a good view of her kid(s). I'm just not comfortable matching when we're clearly still discussing bald females in other threads. For example, both Fem1 and Fem12 were suggested as possible matches to Fem18 -- not because they have the same back mark, but because they have the same bald head, dark face, large ventral infant, and smaller juvenile (among other things). Fem1, Fem12, and Fem18 have also been bounced around as matches to Fem22, Fem23, Fem15 and some other females without temp names, based on various features/traits. I would rather sort out the videos with good views and come back to this one when we've figured out how many bald females there are, but if you want to name her now, that's for you to decide.
Posted
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by
AnLand
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
I am not sure whether I understand you correctly, @jwidness. Your argument has been that she ( ACP0006ldb ) is Jean because of her gray back? You really think that those you mentioned in your latest thread are all Jean too? Because they are bald (all the females here are bald and Jean is the only one not that bald and with a distinctive head form). None of the one you mentioned has three kids with her. ACP0006ldb certainly does not have them. I am not sure, I get this right.
Despite of this: I am fine not making the match.
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
good, we can exclude this match for the moment...we can always come back if we feel more confident at some point. I understand your reasons @jwidness 😃
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
and for a good start of the week, let´s talk now about Ilsa & co. 😛
7. Ilsa + Bohe + DL11Juv5 / ACP0007a7s (...) / ACP00072bh##
Posted
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by
NuriaM
scientist, moderator
as I already said, I support this match; I see Ilsa´s whilte spot on the back of her head in ACP00072bh:
Juv5 and ACP0007a7u/v: same face shape (long), same head bald patch, body build...
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AnLand
moderator
As this has been my proposal: I still agree. 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
excellent! we have now 2 votes in favour 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
if no one is against it, I will be tagging them tomorrow 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
we are going to need a name for Juv5 & Co. 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
I would love to thank the lovely pupils of @zsjihomoravske for helping us finding a name for our juvenile chimp. Kibu is a beautiful name...you did a great job, and we love to have you helping us here in C&S!.
Thank you guys ❤❤❤
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
8. DL11Female17 / DL11Female31
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
here the pro-match arguments:
infants and juveniles fit + female´s left ear looks cut (or not perfectly round) in both cases + female´s face shape and coloration.
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Snorticus
Kibu is a great choice!
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AnLand
moderator
Yes, I love that name. Thank you all at @zsjihomoravske for your help!
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
hey guys,
I checked the DL11Female17/DL11Female31 thread again, and I see only pro argumens for this match...
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AnLand
moderator
DL11Female17 / DL11Female31 -> just to voice an opinion: I actually do not see any similarities in the face. I cannot see the left ear in Fem17 (when do you see it?), the brows look very different and the infant of Fem17 has a dark face mask that I cannot see in Fem31's dorsal infant. Also, it has been discussed that the juv seen with Fem31 probably is not hers.
I actually look since some time into Juv11 and Juv6. Some about their muzzle (very light with smallish hairs) look the same, but I am not sure and cannot really get it together.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
FEMALE´S LEFT EARS:
Female17´s left ear is not perfectly round at the top...I don´t know if that´s a cut, but I don´t see it round either:
Beter seen in ACP0006tfc sec. 13-14.
FEMALE´S BROWS:
Hmmm...I think you are right, Female17´s are a bit more protruded than Female31´s. But here I am not sure if the light plays a role:
INFANTS:
I do see a black/grayish mask in both; in infant26 (from Female31) it looks a bit lighter, but the video in general is lighter 😕
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Snorticus
I don't think DL11Female17 is a match to DL11Female31. Fem17 has a pronounced protruding ridge of a brow and that I don't see in Fem31. The nose of Fem17 is rounded and protrudes while Fem31's nose looks flat to me. The lighting and video quality are both problematic but I still think the differences in facial structure are real.
I also feel that their infants look very different. Inf16 has a very big rounded dome of a head with big light colored ears that stick out. I don't see that head shape on Inf26 or the light colored ears. Inf26 seems to have fluffy sideburns that hide the ears and I don't see that in Inf16.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to Snorticus's comment.
thanks @Snorticus for your opinions.
BROW BRIDGE: agree . I still think that the light has a lot to do here. Whatever the reason might be, I still agree that Fem17 has more protruding brows.
NOSE: sorry, I can´t see it!! I am not able to see Female17´s nose so clearly to claim that it is rounder and protruded...
INFANTS: agree, I didn´t notice intant26´s sideburns. Infant16´s head looks rounder to me too.
I´m not 100% sure that they are not a match, but I see that we have too many doubts to confirm a match here 😦
If no one disagrees, I will exclude this match by monday.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
here I am again 😃
I have been checking our next females:
9. Mary / DL11Female35 / ACP00077qk
And here guys I am not sure...we are focusing on rears and a possible folded left ear, I would just exclude it, unless you really think it´s worth the effort and we should discuss it.
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ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I reluctantly agree. It's possible they are all Mary, but there isn't a lot to go on. I can maybe see the light spot on the back in Female35, and maybe see the unique dark pattern in the swelling in ACP00077qk.... but, they're just maybes from what I can see;
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AnLand
moderator
My opinion is same as before: if we think that there are only two young females at Dry Lake - and one is Roux - this should all be Mary. Nothing is inconsistent, but I cannot see any decisive trait I would base a match on.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
thank you guys 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
next...
10. Olive + DL11Female36
these were not long discussed, but I as I originally said, I have good feelings about this match; I see Olive in her too, same face shape and pigmentation, body build, brows...I think there is a vague glimpse of her ear trait at some point between sec.7 and sec.8, what do you think? I saw it a thousand times and now I don´t know if I see it or if I imagine it :}.
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AnLand
moderator
Still think, it is Olive. Everything is consistent incl. the fact that Tassilo is way ahead of her. 😉
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ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Well, I don't think we can say for sure that Tassilo is ahead of her, but I agree that Female36 is Olive. Especially when compared to Olive in ACP0006kno -- the profile views of her body, face, and stride look exactly the same.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
hashtagged 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Now let´s go ahead with the male´s group. We only have one suggestion in the list, and although this case is not the easiest one, I would love to encourage other users to have a look at them:
1. NOTABLE MALE 1 - ACP00064nw - ACP0006ghf - ACP00077qk
what do you think about them? they have no temporary ID because we only see their rears, but remember that we considered these rears quite distinctive, with two bald spots?
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ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I'm not sure about ACP0006ghf. Just too far and blurry to see but . I can agree to the others, though.
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Snorticus
I agree with @ksigler ACP0006ghf doesn't have enough detail to include with the other clips that I agree do match notable male 1.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
thank you guys...honestly I am not sure about ACP00064nw either . I think his back is not so curved like the NOTABLE MALE1´s and ACP00077qk´s . I would just exclude those two ( ACP00064nw and ACP0006ghf ) and accept NOTABLE MALE1 + ACP00077qk .
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ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
@NuriaM - do you think it could be a time/age factor, with regard to ACP00064nw? I think he looks less robust overall, and that is the oldest clip. It's also steeper terrain in that clip, which might also make the back look different. Not a huge deal, just a thought.
ACP00064nw - 10/4/2012
ACP0006v6l (notable1) - 4/12/2013
ACP00077qk - 5/6/2013
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
hmmmm...you could be right, but still it would be just a suspicion. It might be because of the age difference, but to me ACP00064nw´s rear doesn´t look so marked like the others 😦
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
hey guys, I guess we can presume that at least two rears here match: NOTABLE MALE1 + ACP00077qk .
I have been checking who has been involved in this match process, and @Fox-Hound found our NOTABLE MALE 1 ( http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000iqx ) I think s/he could be the namer here 😃
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Good news: we are almost done, only 5 more juveniles to go 😃
1. DL11Juv1 / DL11Juv7 / Piki
Correct me if I´m wrong: Piki walks with Juv7 here: ACP00064om, so Piki cannot be Juv7 (unless he can split himself into two 😄 ).
So we can exclude Piki + Juv7 match.
Now the question would be:Juv1 + Piki?
OR Juv1 + Juv7?
Juv1 walks with Jean + Dorian (and some females more, but s/he seems to be following Jean) and Juv7 + Piki walk with Aisha and Ajali here ACP00064om . If I had to choose, I would say
Juv1 + Juv7 look quite alike, although Juv1 walks with Dorian and Juv7 walks with Aisha.
Juv1 + Piki: I would reject this match: to me, Piki´s face looks clearer and longer than Juv1´s.
What do you think?
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AnLand
moderator
Thanks, @NuriaM - the juveniles are always hart and I am glad we discuss them nevertheless.
The very basic problem I have with the latest match attempts is that you assigned a name (Aisha) to the female in ACP00064om. She is seen there with a juvenile named Piki, an infant, and another smaller juvenile (DL11Juv07), while Aisha in both other instances is seen with a big infant and a juvenile named Shadow.
I need to look into all this myself during the weekend, but just would like to mention here that there is something unclear or mixed up here. (And I cannot find a thread where we discussed or solved this.)
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ksigler
moderator
@NuriaM - I agree that Juv1 & Piki are not the same. Piki's muzzle is lighter and more rounded and protruding.
Not sure yet about the other option. Who walks with whom in these short glimpses of time is so tricky. In that clip with Jean & Dorian, ACP0007a94, they are the first ones seen. Juv1 is at the end with the unnamed female & infant. Right?
@Anja - I'm confused here, too. I'm not sure Piki is with Aisha in ACP00064om. They are in the same sequence, so not the same chimp, but it doesn't mean they are a family. Aisha has 3-5 sequences, about 6 & 7 months apart. In these, we believe her to have a small then large infant (Ajali) and a juvenile (Juv7, then Shadow). So isn't Juv7 the same chimp as Shadow?
Aisha, juvenile, and (presumably) Ajali behind the mound.(4/18/2013 18:28)
ACP0006v9u
Shadow, female + ventral infant. (4/18/2013 18:19 - essentially the same sequence, timewise) ACP0006vao
Then, Aisha, Ajali, and Shadow together with a male (5-26-2013 6:42) ACP00073ya
If I'm understanding the tags and sequences correctly, it seems the uncertainties are 1) Who does Piki belong to, if it matters? and 2) Who is Juv1 and (in my opinion), the unnamed female & infant with Juv1?
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AnLand
moderator
in response to ksigler's comment.
The tricky thing - and reason why we matched ACP00064om here in the first place is that the bigger juvenile coming first (so: Piki) has the white spot on its wrist like Shadow. (It does not mean that this is the same chimp, white spots are not so rare, but that has been the reason for looking into them.)
(And yes, I think this is one family and they belong together. All four of them.)
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
Good morning...
for some weird reason, I tend to get extremely confused with Piki´s family :S
@ksigler, exactly, Dorian is the female walking first in ACP0007a94 and Juv1 walks behind with Female1/Infant1. Sorry for the confusion, I should have said: Juv1 FOLLOWS Jean and Dorian and WALKS WITH Female1/Infant1.
I guess this shows that this could be a big group walking together, and as we already discussed, the fact that a juvenile is seen walking with a female alone doesn´t necessarily mean that they are mom/kid. Besides, we cannot know what happens behind the camera, there could be more members walking with/waiting for the others.
@AnLand, what do you think? assuming that the white spot was a fortuitous trait, could we then think that Juv7 is Shadow? could we have here a 4-member family: Aisha + Ajali + Piki + Shadow (if s/he happens to be Juv7)?. Am I confusing you even more?? 😉
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