Another Tyra & Toby?
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Snorticus
ACP00064qb This back view of Female13 & Infant12 - is that Tyra's rear with the vertical line in a slightly less swollen pink swelling with some dark pigmentation around the edges? This female's body shape and coloring look like Tyra also. I know ID by rears is not acceptable but can you guys have a look anyway? 😉
ACP0006cfy Here is Tyra's rear to compare:
ACP00064qb The infant has a dark eye mask lighter muzzle, big rounded ears and is holding on by grabbing fur with curled fingers like Toby does.
ACP0006cfy compare to Toby grab style:
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AnLand
moderator
I think @Boleyn already discussed this somewhere (I cannot find it), but we somehow got away from it. I think, we still did not see another infant riding on moms back like this. So, I take this as something to pay attention to (at least until we find another infant doing it). The swellings look very similar.
I think the problem with matching backs is not in fact matching backs: that's fine, but having only the back view of a chimp as we are not able to match a face to him/her. In the worst case, we do have a chimp matched from facial features and one matched from the back view. And they are in fact the same chimp, but we do not know and count one to many.
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AnLand
moderator
I would like to add this video ACP0006ep6 - see discussion in the comments. I would bet money on it.
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Snorticus
ACP0006ep6 The infant seems rather placid with big round ears like Toby, and the female profile has a flatter nose with a protruding muzzle like Tyra. They seem to be acquainted with the camera location too. Too bad they're in such deep shade 😦
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ksigler
moderator
I agree with the suggestion that Fem13 & Inf12 in ACP00064qb are Tyra & Toby.
As for ACP0006ep6, I have doubts. If we feel that the way Toby rides dorsally is unique enough to use to help ID, then I have trouble overlooking the fact that the juvenile in this clip rides much higher up (toward the front) than Toby, who seems to prefer riding at the back, even as recent as the month prior to this clip. Also, Tyra doesn't have gray on her lower back.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
I´m not sure about ACP0006ep6 , but about Fem13...I know I have been often against matching rears, but who else sees Tyra´s left ear deformation? or is it just the light? the pic. is not the best, but check the first 4 seconds of ACP00064qb ...
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ksigler
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
Yes, I see it, also! Good eye!!
Still #4:
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Snorticus
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I missed that ear detail and you are correct!
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Boleyn
moderator
You're right @AnLand we discussed that rear somewhere but neither I can find it anymore. But since we all seem to agree I am the last to decline it 😃
The rear is really distinctive and I can see the irregularity in the ear as well. Well spotted @NuriaM !! That's why a description is so important to not forget the special "trademarks" of the chimps, right?Your video ACP0006ep6 @AnLand could be Toby. It is the same style of riding. The fact that he (or she) sits more to the front might be because at this time Tyra has no swelling and if he would sit so far behind would probably fall down especially if you look at his size. I think he's already almost too big to ride. The glance at the camera does also support the idea.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to Boleyn's comment.
great...this is what I call team work 😃
Female13 + infant12: Tyra and Toby.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
what exactly make you think that ACP0006ep6 are Tyra and Toby? I can´t see much of them 😦
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AnLand
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
It is just a (strong) feeling and I agree, there are no traits seen. But the way, they are traveling together, the way the infant is riding, the camera reaction ... I am absolutely okay (and expect that!) if we don't do the match. But I think that they are Tyra and Toby. It's not more. Just gut feeling.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to AnLand's comment.
@AnLand, of course just a feeling is not enough for claiming a match, but I must say that you have been developing a very good feeling for matching. That´s why I tend to deeply check your assumptions. You all have become chimp. experts and I take your feelings very seriously 😃
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jwidness
moderator
What about the female with infant from ACP0007a95 and ACP0007a96?
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
hmmm...actually Tyra´s most relevant traits are the little scar on her left brow and her left ear´s cut. Here we can´t see neither one not the other 😕
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jwidness
moderator
in response to NuriaM's comment.
I totally agree that there's not much to go on, but I think maybe perhaps I see the cut in her ear in the first couple frames of ACP0007a96? Maybe @AnLand can take a peek at some point -- I think she has a good eye for Tyra/Toby
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Boleyn
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
well spotted @jwidness I think I can see the little irregularity in her left ear as well and her beautiful features. The face looks quite similar: very dark, the small nostrils high up over the long muzzle. The fur is black like Tyra's. She still has a swelling at this time and the infant is riding way back on it like in the known Tyra/Toby videos.
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
let´s see what @AnLand thinks...
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jwidness
moderator
What about this one: ACP000781n -- it's even more questionable than the last, but I get the feeling it's Tyra/Toby again
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AnLand
moderator
To both suggestions: in my opinion, the way this infant (Toby) is riding is somehow special. At least, for the moment we did not see another infant (that is definitely not Toby) who is doing it. In the beginning, I expected that it is not so rare here as there might be some imitation of the baboon kids who are riding like this on mom's back. But that seems not to be the case. So, I still take it as a behavioral trait.
For ACP0007a95 and ACP0007a96: I can see her skinny body and the baldness and long face seems to be there. I actually think that there is something on her left ear, but she is too far away to prove. It might be imagination, but there is a small color difference where the nick should be. The infant has this fuzzy sideburns and round shoulders. But that might be the way you hold your back and shoulders while sitting on mom's back. I am definitely supporting this matching suggestion, but do not have real proof to offer.
For ACP000781n: the way the infant is riding points in this direction. But that is all. I cannot make out her skinny body. She even looks a bit grayer with this video quality. The bigger protuberance at her swelling might give a hint towards Tyra. And I guess there are not so many chimp videos anymore that are not found at this site. Then it is still only Toby riding this way ...
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NuriaM
scientist, moderator
I am not absolutely sure about this. Sometimes I have the feeling that we WANT to see matches because this site doesn´t have many. But the reality is that the videos in general don´t help much. I know you all are very good at finding similarities, and believe me, you are doing a great job...but there are cases where I would prefer not to claim a match although there are reasons to believe it.
I will place these two videos together in the list of possible matches in order to go back to them at some point 😃
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ksigler
moderator
in response to jwidness's comment.
@jwidness, when I saw ACP000781n I thought of the female with 3 young that you pointed out in Another 4 member family?. The oldest juvenile isn't seen, but the female has the same body type and darkness around the very protruding swelling. The younger juvenile is riding on top, and the tiny infant is being carried underneath. If not her, then some other female with at least 2 little ones. Definitely not Tyra.
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