Chimp & See Talk

4 MEMBER FAMILIES

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    1.

    FEMALE1 family

    one

    ACP0007a94

    2.

    FEMALE12 family

    one one

    ACP00064om

    3.

    FEMALE21 family

    one one

    ACP00071au

    4.

    FEMALE26 family

    one one

    ACP0006at9

    5.

    Jean and Dorian family

    one one

    ACP0006rny / ACP0006rnz

    6.

    ACP00071ba family

    one

    ACP00071ba / ACP00071bb / ACP00071bc

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I'm nearly positive we have at least one family of four we can match -- the lady with a grey lower back and legs, her initially ventral, but later also dorsal infant, and two large juveniles (one slightly bigger than the other). Mom also has dark around her lips, and a small white beard. Both ears appear normal.

    In chronological order, I think she's in (and I'm repeating some proposals made by others here):

    A. ACP0006at9 and ACP0006ata Fem26, Inf21, Juv16 & Juv17 (this is from late 2012 and the infant is still ventral)

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    B. ACP0006tit and ACP0006tiu also late 2012, infant is ventral

    enter image description here

    C. ACP00079t9, ACP00079ta, ACP00079tb 3/2013 Infant is dorsal here

    enter image description here

    (no good previews of the two juveniles)

    D. ACP0007a94 4/2013 I don't think Fem1 is a match to this family, but I actually think the first female with dorsal infant and grey legs is. The first two juveniles are also part of the match, while the other juvenile belongs with Fem1.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    E. ACP0006ot2, ACP0006ot3, ACP0006ot5 6/2013 Infant is ventral again, but that's not too surprising given the less than calm nature of the video.

    enter image description here

    F. ACP0006rny, ACP0006rnz 7/6/2013 Dorsal infant, somewhat good face shot of mom

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    G. ACP00070fv, ACP00070fx 7/6/2013 This family is the 2 large juveniles that come running in from the right, then the mom with the grey back and dorsal infant that enters at the end of the first video.

    enter image description here

    H. ACP00072ds 7/14/2013

    enter image description here

    I don't think Fem12 is a match, she's too bald. And Fem21 and the female from ACP00071ba don't have the grey back and legs.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Good work pulling all of this together, @jwidness ! I think I can comfortably agree that A, D (really helpful to have this sorted out), E, F, and H are matches. The mother's coloring is key to this, and you're probably right about all of them. I'm hesitant about a few just because of poor facial views to go with the legs. Btw, I love the clips where the juveniles take off running together. That mom has her hands full. 😃

    For comparison to the original family of 4 list:

    • A=#4
    • B=#9
    • C not in the original list
    • D=#1 (but not Female1)
    • E=#10
    • F=#5
    • G=#7
    • H=#8

    So, assuming these are all matches, that leaves #2, #3 and #6 left from the original list.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I do not have the time today to look into all assembled videos, but have one question for ACP0007a94 : what is the clue that the juveniles belong to the other female, not to DL11Female1? I am just interested why you are thinking this. In my opinion, besides the side glance of the second older juvenile (that I attribute to Female1), I do not see anything. They are traveling in a group in the same direction.

    I also think (but this hard to compare) that the older juveniles look considerably bigger than in ACP0006at9 - and it's only 5 months in between.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I agree with you that these ladies rears look really the same, the juveniles too. The females are grey not only on their backs, but also on their hind legs.

    I would only exclude ACP00079t9 from this match...I think although she´s got grey hind legs too, to me it´s too unclear as she appears only during the first second of the video. I am not saying that she is not a match, but I have too many doubt in this particular case.

    good job!!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    uhhh...my heads spinning from all these numbers and letters. Great jobs, @jwidness and @ksigler. I'm glad those videos are now all together since I wasn't thorough enough in my first attempt to match the ladies with the silver backs 😃

    I would also exclude DL11Fem12 because I'm not really sure if her back and legs are all that grey. But of course it might also be the light as so often here in DL11.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    In ACP0007a94, I think the first two juveniles belong with the first grey-leg female because they continue walking with her when Fem1 and the juvenile I'm presuming belongs to Fem1 stop. To be honest, I sort of think the earlier glance from the second juvenile is not directed at Fem1, but rather back in the direction that the third female with large dorsal infant appears at the end of the clip. But that's not certain, I could be wrong.

    As for their size, I don't feel strongly either way -- they look bigger, but I don't know if they look more than 5 months bigger.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    You did a great job with the first attempt at the match! It's a complicated scenario with 4 to a family, plus others in the same videos!

    Yes, I excluded Fem12, Fem21 and the female from ACP00071ba in the post I made -- they were #2, #3, and #6 from Nuria's post.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Do we have a large match here?

    A=#4

    B=#9

    D=#1 (but not Female1)

    E=#10

    F=#5

    G=#7

    H=#8

    I excluded C ( ACP00079t9 ) , but of course I accept disagreements 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I'm on board with this match, and I have another video to add. I think the grey-leg female in the background of ACP00070n8 is the mom:

    enter image description here

    If that's her, it strongly implies to me that Juv9 and Juv13 are her two older kids. There are no other adult females on camera at this day/time, except for Tyra, who shows up ~15 minutes after the juveniles leave.

    Edit: just to be more clear about why I think these juveniles are hers, they keep looking back at her when she's behind the termite mound, and then when she moves off to the left, they now glance frequently in that direction. Also, when they get up to leave, they move in the direction we last saw her. I also see the same fluffy sideburns on Juv9 that Juv16 has.

    For reference, these are all the termite mound videos:

    ACP00070n6, ACP00070n7, ACP00070n8, ACP00070n9, ACP00070n2, ACP00070n3, ACP00070n4, ACP00070n5, ACP00070ne

    They were briefly discussed here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000hq5

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    But, of course, Tyra has also been seen once with an older juvenile in ACP0006m8z. If we accept that the older juveniles are not always with mom and sometimes prefer being with a "peer", it is going to be difficult. And @jwidness said earlier that the second juvenile in ACP0007a94 is looking back to the female that we think is Tyra with Toby.

    ![enter image description here](http://)

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Now that you mention this other juvenile seen with Tyra in ACP0006m8z, I thought I would point out that on the termite mound day, Tyra and Toby also show up with an older juvenile (and again, these are only chimps on that cam that day: grey mom w/ventral infant and Juv9 & Juv13, then later Tyra/Toby/another juvenile).

    Tyra/Toby/juv sequence: ACP00070na ACP00070nb ACP00070nc ACP00070nd (starts ~15 mins after juv9 and juv13 leave)

    (Tyra off screen to left, Toby behind termite mound, unknown juvenile on right)

    enter image description here

    It seems to me that if Tyra has an older juvenile, it's more likely to be this one than either Juv9 or Juv13 (though I don't mean to suggest this one is hers, just that if she has a juvenile, I don't think it's Juv9 or Juv13).

    Which leads me to my next point. It's certainly not a sure thing that a female seen with an older juvenile is the mom, but looking at some published data, juveniles are still usually seen with mom until 8-10 years old.

    enter image description here

    However, I completely agree that proximity alone is not a reliable indicator, especially when there are other potential moms close by.

    As far as the juvenile in ACP0007a94, I didn't mean to suggest that he/she is looking at Tyra, rather I think the juvenile is looking in that general direction, and not necessarily at Fem1, but not necessarily at Tyra either. The whole general body language I get from that juvenile is that he/she is with the grey-leg mom, not Fem1, and not Tyra.

    In the case of Juv9 and Juv13, I think there are a number of reasons to consider that they may belong to the grey female in back:

    -They don't just look in her direction once, they repeatedly check back with her, and the direction of their glances follows her when she changes position. The female also looks at them twice just in the few steps we see her take.

    -When they leave, they go in the direction the female went (and not toward the direction we see Tyra come from).

    -We don't see other potential moms around for them -- Tyra is pretty far behind them, and as I said, if she has an older juvenile, it's more likely to be the one with her rather than Juv9 or Juv13.

    -They look like the kids in the other videos with the grey-leg mom family. As I see it, the older one has a smooth face with a rounder muzzle, slightly more rounded brows, and very pouty lips. The younger one has brows that go more up in the middle, and very fluffy sideburns.

    The older one:

    Juv13 (on right, from ACP00070n7)

    enter image description here

    Juv17 from ACP0006at9

    enter image description here

    from ACP0007a94 (in the middle)

    enter image description here

    from ACP0006ot2

    enter image description here

    The younger one:

    Juv9 (from ACP00070ne)

    enter image description here

    Juv16 from ACP0006at9 (on right)

    enter image description here

    from ACP0006rnz

    enter image description here

    Sorry for the very long-winded post! I hope I made sense : ) And I don't mind at all if we leave them out of the match for now, it's always easier to add later than to take away.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    wow! I'm impressed @jwidness It would have taken me ages to come up with a post like this one.

    I do also think that the two juveniles at the termite mound belong to the silver back female rather than Tyra. We stated somewhere that juveniles might change the female they accompany (mom, auntie etc.). About the juvenile of ACP0007a94 I have the impression he/she is looking way back not so much to the left to fem1.
    As far as I rememer the silver lady had always two around.

    It also seems that silver lady and Tyra are often travelling together - a bit apart but still in one sequence.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Of course, the same thing is true for the older juvenile that travels with Tyra. It should be with her in ACP0007a95 (if that's Tyra). It is at least possible that one of the two older ones are hers. We obviously do not see everything.

    My point is: matching a female chimp (especially when other females, i.e. potential mothers, are around) solely based on the fact that some of the juveniles present might be hers and they constitute a family is difficult. I am absolutely comfortable with all the parts of the match that are based on visible traits of the mother and/or the juveniles (in a paper from the MPI they took a threshold of three matching traits per individual). For the juveniles, I have to admit that I cannot reliably separate one from the other. But that might be only me (and the video quality), but I see no clear traits and in some cases have doubts based on their apparent size difference that does not fit my expectations.

    For the first female (with the dorsal infant) in ACP0007a94, I actually agree that she might be part of this match: gray legs and lower back, straight brows, flat forehead, big ears that look as if they are a bit too far back on the head, and her small eyes. And the infant she is carrying is hers. The juveniles might be hers, but it is difficult to say as other mothers are around and we apparantly miss one juvenile in that scene - if the potential Tyra is Tyra and she has an older kid.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I think I spotted the beautiful grey-legged lady again in the background of ACP0006uqx, ACP0006uqy, ACP0006uqz, ACP0006ur1

    enter image description here

    She's the slender, lanky one with the perfectly smooth grey legs and dorsal infant crossing slowly in the back.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    And here are probably some other videos ACP0006bwk and ACP0006bwl of her climbing up a tree with her ventral infant. This might be the first video of her since it's from August 2012.
    There's at least one juvenile jumping about on the on the ground.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I completely agree with @Boleyn on ACP0006bwk and ACP0006bwl. I also went combing through the spreadsheet and have a few more to add. I'm working off the assumption that she's the only female at this site that has a very grey lower back and legs (all the way down to the feet) with an infant that starts ventral and becomes dorsal size around spring 2013 and is often seen with 2 juveniles of nearly equal size. Her build is tall and lanky, with smooth and slender legs. If people don't think it's safe to say no one else has all those characteristics then I don't think it would be good to match all these clips, but I really think she's the only one.

    She's the slender female with grey legs in the back of ACP000692f

    enter image description here

    She's the female in back in ACP00072kk. The juveniles follow in ACP00072kl and ACP00072km. Preview isn't great, but you can see flashes of grey legs as she moves across the frame.

    enter image description here

    I believe she's the female in ACP0006ldb and ACP0006ldc. It's not really visible in the preview, but I see a very grey bum and thigh in the video.

    enter image description here

    ACP00077lo

    enter image description here

    She's the female with dorsal infant in ACP000749w. I suspect her juveniles are in ACP00074a0 and ACP00074ac a moment later.

    enter image description here

    She's in ACP00077on with her infant ventral and both juveniles (plus some others)

    enter image description here

    I have a few more than I'm less sure on -- maybe I'll bring them up later.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Hmm... I'm not saying more than one chimp has those traits, but my feeling is that the views in some of these are too far and/or quick to be sure the chimps in them have all those traits. Even the gray on the lower part of her legs is hard to see in some of them, which was her key unique trait. I think she's definitely in:

    Possibly in:

    The others, I'm not on board with yet (or forgot about). ACP0006ldb did stand out, though, as we also see a droopy lower lip and long nipples. If there are other clips of her that have those features, it might help the match.

    I also think we might need to leave her older offspring out as matching criteria, even going back to the previous proposals. Since, in many of these newer clips they either aren't present or it's "pick any 2," that argument has lost weight. Unless their familial interaction is really clear within a clip, it's circumstantial only. :-\

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    absolutely agree with you...let´s keep only strong (or at least as strong as possible) criteria to claim matches...otherwise it´s getting too confusing.

    Please, someone give a name to our silver lady in (I need a name or I´ll get crazy 😛)

    A=#4

    B=#9

    D=#1 (but not Female1)

    E=#10

    F=#5

    G=#7

    H=#8

    this way we can get rid of 7 ladies and then we can have a look at the others...

    by the way, I completely agree with @Boleyn (CP0006bwk and ACP0006bwl) that she might be the same, but let´s start from the beginning 😃

    did I already tell you that you are doing an amazing job?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    If it's ok with all the many people who worked on this match, I'd like to suggest the name Jean (as in Jean Grey 😉) for the mom. Someone else should suggest a name for the infant, and I don't know if we want to name the two juveniles yet or not. I'm convinced they're a family of four, but if people want to hold off for now, that's fine too.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thanks @jwidness, this is what I call a step forward 😃

    I love Jean...I know I am starting to get a bit old fashioned, and I have no idea who Jean Grey is (I must admit that I had to google it, and she happens to be a comic heroine, right?), but I love Michael Jackson, and Billy Jean is compulsory in our car when we drive long (even my kids used to dance it 😛 ).

    as for the juveniles, I would prefer to leave them apart. Although they are very likely to belong to the same family, you never really know with juveniles...so, if you don´t mind, I would only name mom and infant ♥

    I will post them as soon as we have the baby´s name...THANKS!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am not sure whether it is correct to post it here, but as @ksigler talked about the (really) long nipples of the female in ACP0006ldb, I wanted to note that DL11Female18 (seen in ACP0006v9t etc.) has very long nipples too, a gray beard and an infant of similar size and with a similar very dark face mask. The slightly protruded swelling might match the one of the female in ACP0006ldb (perspective is very different and she travels fast). Both ears are present and sticking out slightly (as in many chimps here).

    Both videos might not be enough for matching, but there are similarities. In both sequences only one infant is prresent (carried once, but not too young anymore). The white scar is not seen in ACP0006ldb as the infant is riding on her back and the camera position does not allow. Maybe more to take note.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Nice -- I agree 100% with that suggestion @AnLand! 😃 In addition to the gray beard and long nipples, she has the same large bald area on the head, droopy bottom lip, and right ear that is folded or squared at the top.

    ACP0006ldb:

    female

    Fem18, ACP0006v9u:

    Fem18

    I agree we may want to move this, since it's not really about the 4 member families, at least in these sequences.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey guys...you are right about the similarities. But we might need to move it or to keep this in mind and keep going with the name of Jean´s infant 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    @AnLand, if you want to start a new post with these two ladies is fine...for the moment I will move them to the list of possible matches so that we don´t forget them.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    It stresses me out when no one wants to name chimps! I'm going to propose Dorian for the Jean's infant, because I spell Gray with an "a." 😉 I'm fine if someone has an affinity with this chimp and has a different proposal, though.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Dorian is a great name even without the reference. Love it!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thanks @ksigler!! Jean and Dorian are beautiful names ♥

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I would like to add one more sequence. In ACP00074eu, ACP00074ew, ACP00074ey, ACP00074ez are two juveniles drinking that have the same size, size difference and appearance as the kids we see with Jean (and Dorian) in ACP0006at9

    It is the only scene where I really see similarities to these juveniles and a face shot and traits for the younger one are seen. No adult female is seen. (The spreadsheet notes a scene with chimps directly before this, but it's more than an hour in real time before ( ACP00074eg ). In my opinion, none of the females there is gray enough to be Jean.).

    Both juveniles:

    enter image description here

    Older one hardly recognizable (big ears that stick out a bit as only recognizable trait):

    enter image description here

    Younger one with a distinctive broad and light face and barrel-shaped body that looks a bit too short for his/her head:

    enter image description here

    Here the comparison from Jean's kids (size difference and leaner body of the older (the second one here) better seen in video):

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree with you, these two guys look like Jean´s juvs. I see a small pinkish spot on the youngest juv´s left side of upper lip...in both pics:

    one

    one

    sorry for the shots, maybe you see it better in the videos...or it´s just another pixel or the light reflection 😠

    as for the biggest one, I see similarities too, like the big ears and size...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    #DL11Juv20 + #DL11Juv21

    Thanks @AnLand :]

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    One additional remark: I looked briefly into all the matching proposals for the juveniles that @jwidness made. Often nothing is seen and the match is only proposed because of the female present. (That is reasonable, but often with other chimps present - juveniles and adult females - and I think that is risky.)

    But one proposition sticks out as I see here actually similarities: DL11Juv13 and DL11Juv9: same sizes of the juveniles, the same size difference, straighter brows, and the light face (without that dark face mask, many younger juveniles here already have) and the face form that is much bigger (broader) around the eyes and brows and more narrow at the muzzle. The younger one looks a bit slow and uncoordinated in ACP00070ne - he/she does also in ACP00074ey (not bad, just a bit more childish) - and has a lot of fuzzy hair at the sideburns.

    The older one seems to be a girl (small swelling, that's not only the white anal tuft) and that matches with my expectation. 😉

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but do you mean Juv13 and Juv9 are the same? Or Juv13 and Juv9 are the same as Juv20 and Juv21?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Haha, no, of course Juv13 and Juv9 are not the same, but a match to Juv20 and Juv21 as one pair of siblings and Juv16 and Juv17 as the other pair of the same siblings (with the latter pair (16 and 17), I am actually not sure who got which temporary ID). Sorry, for the confusion. DL11Juv13 and 9 stick out for their similarities with the other juveniles that I proposed as a match.

    For the others mentioned, I just cannot see it. Only context could tell.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    tidying things a bit up...

    the small ones DL11Juv9 + DL11Juv21 + DL11Juv17:

    one one one

    and the big brothers (or sisters) 😄 DL11Juv13 + DL11Juv20 + DL11Juv16:

    one one one

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    @NuriaM: could you include Juv16 and Juv17 as well (and tell me for them again, who got which temporary ID)? Just to see the matching proposal in one post. Makes it easier.

    I think that DL11Juv13 is a girl because of this video: ACP00070n2 (and I think, I see it in her matching proposals, too.)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    no problem...sorry 😃

    DL11Juv16 is the one walking first, and DL11Juv17 follows (smaller than Juv16).

    I would say she is a girl too ✿

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @NuriaM,

    sorry for asking again / discussing your opinion. But I actually think that DL11Juv16 is the smaller one. He/she is just more massive (barrel-shaped). DL11Juv17 (the one following last is already taller, only leaner). I think, one can see the size difference best, when they are entering from the left. Juv16 is - in my opinion - considerably shorter. Do you think otherwise?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    @NuriaM - could you please look into the juveniles again (in my post from Friday, right before this one)? Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hi @AnLand,

    we (or I) considered at first that the second juvenile (juvenile17) was younger than the first one (juvenile16), and maybe my reasoning was that juvenile17´s white tuft is a bit more noticeable than juv16´s, but maybe it´s just the angle. Actually 17 could be a bit bigger as you say, but the difference is very subtle...

    what do the others think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    sorry @AnLand that it took me a while to answer...and now you´re gone :[

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    I agree with @AnLand. You can see a white tail tuft more clearly on Juv16 right before it leaves the screen, behind the leaves. As she said, Juv16's body has a compact barrel shape, but I believe Juv17 is actually larger and has a more sleek muscle tone.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    No problem. I was just afraid that you might not see this and I have to wait patiently another day.

    Thanks for your opinion, @ksigler!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I suggested Juv16 = Juv9 and Juv17 = Juv13 a number of pages back, and I still believe that to be true. 9/16 is the smaller one, 13/17 is the bigger one, in my opinion.

    I also suggested briefly that the juvenile in ACP00074a0 is Juv9/16, and the one in ACP00074ac a minute later is Juv13/17 -- I believe Jean is in ACP000749w (the second mom). I only mentioned it in passing, so I don't know if anyone else looked into it, and the views aren't so great.

    I agree that Juv20 and Juv21 are good additions to the match.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hey guys, I am absolutely not sure now...I will ask around. If you happen to be right, it´s not a big deal, but I will have to change a couple of things...

    let´s see what others think.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    so this is what you suggest:

    Juv 9 + 16 + 21

    Juv 13 + 17 + 20

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi guys,

    I checked the juv. sizes, and here´s what I got:

    @PaulDG: they are very similar, but I see the second one a little bit bigger

    @MimiA: I really don't think you can say. Chimps also have variation in size (body size and tuft size) for the same age classes‎ sio I don't think you can say anything about who is older with such a small difference.Very interesting that you see this so often though!

    If you still support the idea that the Juv17 is bigger, and if you find it relevant in order to match them, I can change their descriptions...

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @NuriaM,

    thanks for getting an opinion by others. Yes, I still think that DL11Juv17 is a bit bigger than Juv16 and also that the features I see in Juv9 and especially in Juv21 (like broad, light face, fuzzy sideburns, and barrel-shaped body) are a very well fit to Juv16. But that's only my opinion.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    I think there is probably enough agreement about them to warrant changing the descriptions. If we ever see them separately, it might get (more) confusing otherwise.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    done :}

    Juv13 + Juv17 + Juv20

    Juv9 + Juv16 + Juv21

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey guys, I thought this is interesting concerning our juveniles. This is from @northernlimitptv :

    ... as you've already noticed in the videos there are definitely occasions when the kids are all playing together at a bit of a distance from their mothers (the daycare phemon. ), however I've never seen kids switch adult females for the day and follow around someone else unless they're really getting at the age where they start hanging out on their own. I think both those kids in the videos would still be too young. The only other option that could be true for a 'switching' situation is that one has been recently orphaned.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Ahh, that's interesting, and helpful to know! I was just reading about two orphaned chimps at Fongoli (Tia was the mother, bit by a snake, I think?), and it was really sad. When we're having trouble matching chimps here, I sometimes wonder if one has died, or a female has moved in or out, or something like that. But I don't know how we would really know for sure.

    Anyway.... You're saying, if it's a large group setting, then it's possible that juveniles will play with other unrelated juveniles and interact with unrelated mothers or aunts. But, if a mother is walking around on her own (not in a group, that we can see), then any juveniles likely belong to her. Correct? That's really helpful!! Thank you!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    ;]

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    If we are discussing Dry Lake again, I would love if we could go back to Jean's older offsprings. Skimming about the discussion here we had support from @jwidness, @ksigler, and me but never finalized and it's a pity. They are so great and deserve a name.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree with @AnLand -

    Female21 + infant + juveniles (Mom named Jean, infant named Dorian, and her 2 juveniles definitely deserve names)

    ACP0006rny + ACP0006rnz

    ACP0006at9 + ACP0006ata

    Posted