Chimp & See Talk

Gray-faced chimp on hillside, gender unclear

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    @Snorticus found this really cool sequence of a chimp sitting on a hillside, watching something off-camera and bearing its teeth. The gender is unclear, but the facial views are quite good.

    Adult, small-medium dark body, very light gray face with whiter muzzle, marked prognathism, dark hollow cheekbones, both ears appear intact with a large normal right ear that is more pink than face, very straight light brow.

    ACP0006nwk | ACP0006nwn | ACP0006nwq | ACP0006nws

    chimp on hillside

    profile

    A juvenile joins at the end, but there is no obvious interaction. Helps a little with size comparison, though.

    juvenile and chimp

    S/He reminds me a little of the female seen in this sequence, who also has a lean dark body, light gray face with lighter muzzle, and large pink ear. Still below is from ACP00070d5, but the full clips have better views: ACP00070d4 | ACP00070d5 | ACP00070d6

    female

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    this is great!

    I am creating a section called UNCLEAR like I did in MF7, for those whose gender is not clear but that we want to keep on track...

    Shall I give the juvenile an ID too? do you think you can recognize him/her again?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hmmm...I was thinking of Ilsa :S

    same greyish face and brows...
    but I guess we should be seing Bohe around. Just a fast thought 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Tough call on the juvenile, since as soon as it turns around, it puts its hand in front of its face. But, I think we can see testicles, an inward bump on the outside of the ear, and a straight browline. And he(?) is an older juvenile, which we've only see a few of. So, yes, let's give (him?) an ID, also. Thanks! 😃

    I thought Ilsa's muzzle had more white speckles on it than this chimp. And right, no Bohe around, but we don't know what it is s/he is looking at up in the trees and bearing his/her teeth at.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    done... #DL11Juv22 :}

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I had this video today for classification and have question. I think, the juvenile is grunting when approaching the sitting adult in ACP0006nws. That should be a submissive grunt (but I am no expert). It sounds for me like one. A) Would that mean that the adult is not the mother? B) I think, I see small testicles in the juvenile. It looks a bit lighter there. 😉 Would a big male juvenile (an adolescent) grunt towards an adult female or would that mean that the adult is a male? I am just curious.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi @AnLand,

    chimps communication is very interesting. I am no expert on it, but I will try to help you anyway...some scientists say that chimps can produce more than 15 different types of calls (I think Jane Goodall even says 30). These calls have different names, for example, these are some of them:

    the PANT HOOT: these are those typical loud calls. They are used most frequently by males, and you can hear them in long distances. Chimps are known to have individual and distinctive pant hoots. They consist of introduction, build-up, climax, and let-down. Look : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3b-MBaa3bg

    the PANT GRUNT/PANT BARK: these are submissive calls produced usually by juveniles approaching or being approached by higher-ranking individuals. http://gombechimpanzees.org/activities/vocal-communication/

    the FOOD SQUEAKS: soft grunts meaning food enjoyment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X6MFsNIoC4

    SCREAMS: chimps scream when they are being chased or threattened (we already saw some of them 😃 ); females sometimes produce a copulation scream when mating (or right after). Young chimps may whimper when stressed (separation from mom for example). And then we have a hoo, which is a contact call, mostly produced by infants or mothers.

    look at this video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQFOi5Whlzk

    In this case, we don´t know if the adult is a female or a male, but to me it sounds more like a hoo than any other call. I was thinking of a pant grunt to, but they are a bit more intense.

    Could I help a bit? If someone has something to add about chimps vocal communication, I will be very happy to learn more 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Very interesting, thanks @NuriaM for this "sounding" excursion! 😄

    It would be very handy if you could copy this as a sticking post in the "Science Board / General Chimp ID Discussion/Information Board". Thanks!!

    Posted

  • akalan by akalan scientist in response to AnLand's comment.

    AnLand great observation, yes indeed the juvenile is grunting, pant-grunting submissively to the individual sitting on the ground, so definitely not the mother and the individual sitting down can quite confidently be classified as a male.

    NuriaM- really nice description of the calls! Keep in mind that chimpanzee calls are acoustically graded, meaning one type grades into another so it can be hard to classify them categorically. The best way to learn to identify calls is to hear them used in a variety of contexts over and over again.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Very interesting listening to the variety of chimp sounds and a handy guide post as @Boleyn says.

    So we now know that the sitting chimp who bares teeth is a male then? Good face views so maybe we can match to another male.

    As to size comparison - is the juvenile fairly large or is the male somewhat small? They seem kind of close in size for a juvenile and an adult male.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Hi @Snorticus,

    No, it hasn't been said that the adult chimp is a male. That was my idea as an older male juvenile might - in my thinking - not submissively grunting to an adult female. But @akalan did not say (or confirmed) this. She was only talking about the juvenile, that he is indeed a male.

    What we now know is that the adult chimp is not the mother of the juvenile, as he would not submissively grunts towards his mother.

    That's what I understand from @akalan's posting.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    I hope we get another scientist to weigh in on this as I would like to know if it's possible to conclude that the seated teeth baring chimp is male.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    This was @akalan 's statement that the adult is a male, though she doesn't say why she's confident of the gender. It may or may not be have been due to the vocalizations of the juvenile.

    the juvenile is grunting, pant-grunting submissively to the individual sitting on the ground, so definitely not the mother and the individual sitting down can quite confidently be classified as a male.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Ah, I thought, sitting down refers to the juvenile. (But I am not a native English speaker, so apparently I am wrong here. Sorry!)

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

    It's still ambiguous though as 'the individual sitting down' can mean either one who is seated or one who is in the process of sitting, so maybe @akalan can clarify her meaning and her reasoning. We have good facial views of this adult so it would be nice to pin down what sex this chimp is.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to akalan's comment.

    Thanks @akalan for the clarification.

    So, you would say that the adult is a male for sure (the juvenile too 😃 )? because s/he is in our list of Unclear (DL11UNCLEAR01) and if we are sure that it´s a male I will change it...which part of the context tells you that? (juv´s age, adult´s reaction...?). I am just curious, I find chimp communication fascinating 😃

    Posted

  • akalan by akalan scientist

    Hi all! sorry i didn't see this sooner, but i definitely mean the bigger, adult, who is sitting down in the whole clip is a male. @Nuria I wanted to post a paper that I think would be excpetionally useful for these contexts, will try to find it or upload it. But essentially because the juvenile would never pant grunt to his mother submissively like that, nor would juvenile do that to an adult female minding her own business, maybe only if she was attacking him/her.

    Posted

  • akalan by akalan scientist

    https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&q=Rank+differences+in+the+production+of+vocalizations+by+Kibale+Forest+chimpanzees+as+a+function+of+social+context.&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

    The link leads you to a place where you can access the pdf freely online And Table II is VERY helpful for vocalizations 😃

    Posted

  • akalan by akalan scientist

    Arcadi's categorization of submissive and non-submissive though is not clear nor does it always make sense, so the social context is always important to consider when interpreting the calls.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to akalan's comment.

    Hi @akalan,

    thanks a lot for clarification! I am glad that my thinking was helpful after all and we could with that determine that the sitting adult is indeed a male. Vocalization and social interactions are really tricky for me in the chimpanzees, and both them together in one situation ... Just cool.

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Hey Nuria - when you update the gender of that individual can you make sure to explain why and link back to this discussion please?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    No problem 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    I've been searching for another clip of this guy, and I think this is him... let me know what you think.

    ACP0006ouz

    I see the light, straight brow, the gray face, similar head shape and body proportions, no baldness, the large pink ear set far back on the head, and the dark indention at the cheekbone.

    The best view can be seen if you pause around :13 seconds when he looks toward the camera.

    male

    male

    And here's the original again for comparison:

    ACP0006nwk | ACP0006nwn | ACP0006nwq | ACP0006nws

    male

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I see in this new video ACP0006ouz in the first place DL11Male5 from ACP00064qa: the brows, ears, body build, gray back, and especially the long face. It does not mean that this is not DL11Male10 - but I cannot really see any distinctive trait. Face is not seen very good.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Hi @ksigler, I have been cheching these guys:

    straight brow: agree

    gray face: I see your new guys´ face a bit darker, but this I guess is just a light effect.

    similar head shape and body proportions: agree

    no baldness, the large pink ear set far back on the head: here I have something to add: if you pause male10 at sec. 10 in ACP0006nwk and your guy at sec. 11 (in ACP0006ouz) you can see a VERY subtle trait in his right ear: a very small `cut´ or indention on the side in both males.

    and the dark indention at the cheekbone: agree

    I know it´s not much seen in ACP0006ouz, but still I see those small traits that you mean.

    @AnLand, your male5 proposal makes sense for my taste too: long and sort of bony face...

    don´t you think that these three guys could be the same, or do you go for male5 + male10 only?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    DL11Male12 for the moment 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    "Bony face" is a great expression for what I am seeing!

    Let me think about it - at the moment, I would not exclude, but I am not really convinced, especially as we discussed these straighter brows for several males here. (And I really would like to see the body build and back of DL11Male10).

    Let me also check tonight with one other guy I have on my list for him. Cheers!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Sure!

    thank you @AnLand 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Nuria, you already agreed to a match of Male5, Male6, and the male in ACP0006myg, what happened with that?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    That was thread where @NuriaM told us about her fish memory, so maybe that's to blame...

    🐟

    Kidding, @NuriaM ! 😉

    I'm not convinced of all the traits matching 4/5/6+, but admit to currently being a little biased toward 10/12, so I need some time to think about this new proposal. If it helps others, here's a summary of the other discussion.

    Male4 = Male5 (deemed the same sequence) = Male6 (same light spots on the face) = ACP0006myg (same back view as Male4/5)

    Male4/5 (male at center):

    Male4/5

    Male6 (chimp on the far right):

    Male6

    ACP0006myg (first chimp):

    male back view

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey guys,

    thanks for refreshing my fish memory 😄

    I must admit that I am here a bit overwhelmed...it would mean then that 4/5 + 6 + ACP0006myg (first male) + 10 + 12 are a match.

    I agree with 10 + 12

    and 4/5 + 6 + ACP0006myg

    I said that 5 + 10 + 12 made sense for me; we were discussing about a small white spot on the upper lip of male 6, and I can´t find it in the others (I don´t mean that it´s not there, but I can´t see it).

    What do you think, do we have a long match here or two short ones?

    OPTION A:

    1. male 4/5 + 6 + ACP0006myg
    2. male 10 + 12

    OPTION B:

    male 4/5 + 6 + ACP0006myg + 10 + 12

    I am more convinced about OPTION A, but not completely reluctant to consider OPTION B...
    HELP!!!! 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    That's exactly what I was thinking... likely option A, but maybe option B. Some of these traits are quite possibly found in multiple chimps, and we don't (yet) have a lot of traits seen in all of them. I forgot to mention it before, I do see the nick in the right ear you mentioned, @NuriaM. Unfortunately, we don't even see that ear in the others (though maybe somewhere in male6 that I missed?).

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey, I know you might be now busy with Paula´s sites, and I really appreciate that you still spend some minutes with me here, thanks!!

    if OPTION B is not so clear to us and we all go for OPTION A, then I guess it´s time for @jwidness to give us a name for 1. (male 4/5 + 6 + ACP0006myg) as she was the one starting that thread.

    and @ksigler found male12 and proposed a match between him and male10

    agree?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I have doubts with option A (both suggested matches) and option B - and think that it is problematic to assign two names just because it is easier. (But I had doubts about other recent matches too.)

    To make my position clear: Male12 + Male5 and maybe Male10 - I am not totally convinced by the latter, but mostly because there is not back view (that excludes option A), I have doubts about Male6 (that excludes option B. )

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    @Nuria -- to me, this site isn't done, and I'm finally getting really familiar with the individuals, so I'm happy to keep at it. 😃

    @AnLand, I understand your hesitations with Option A. I'd love to see the back of Male10, also... but.. no luck. I don't know if I want to start a trend of having a great face view but not matching because we can't see the back. Lack of back views aside, assuming that no one is wrong in the other things they DO see, your proposal then is that they are all the same chimp (maybe not Male06)? So, Option B except for Male06? Or Option B except Male06 and Male10?

    The differences I see between Male10 & Male05 are:

    • I think Male10's face is more uniformly gray, not spotted, but the varying light conditions may be the issue. Spotting can also be temporary.
    • I think Male10s body seems more compact and round.
    • Male05's brow is (in the description) curved, and dips between the eyes. Possibly due to angle. Male10's brow is very straight, and goes all the way across with no break between the eyes.

    I also have reservations about Male06 and any of these matches because so little is seen.

    Maybe we need more opinions. We could hold off until there is more agreement or disagreement.

    I actually have 1 other sequence that I think may be part of the 10/12 match. I was waiting to avoid confusion, but if it's right, it may help with this disagreement.

    I think the adult male climbing into the tree in ACP00072hs | ACP00072ht shows the same body shape & size, head shape, brow, ear, and especially that uniformly gray face. In comparison, it doesn't look like Male04/05 or Male06 to me at all. Hopefully that doesn't confuse matters more.

    male

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    hm...I see the uniformly gray face that you mean, but actually I can´t see much here. He is exacly under the light /shadow spot , and if you go pause/motion between sec. 3 and 4 his pigmentation changes with light. to me it means that this might not be a reliable trait in this case 😕

    @AnLand I understand your doubts too. Believe me, if I go for OPTION A is not just because it is easier. The easiest thing here would be to exclude this match. But I want to try other possibilities before excluding it.

    I am willful and stubborn with a fish memory...sorry!! 😉

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    ...but we can just wait for more opinions, I guess it would be the most sensible thing here.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thanks, @NuriaM. 😦 I hope someone else has an opinion to help us settle this.

    Do you think it's safe to go ahead and call Option A.1 a match (though Male06 has some doubts)? It would help consolidate a little until we're positive about whether the others should be included or not.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey @ksigler,

    sorry I didn´t reply before (at home we are all ill 😦 ).

    I think it´s a good idea, we could start by naming male4/5 and ACP0006myg, and wait for more opinions about male10 + male12. @AnLand, you had doubts about male6; we can exclude him for the moment, what do you think?

    It would be then time for @jwidness to give us a name 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thanks, @NuriaM ! I hope you guys feel well soon!!
    💊

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Can I suggest Thorin?

    Get well soon!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    I like Thorin...thanks!!!

    Posted