Chimp & See Talk

Fem22 = Fem23 = Fem28?

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    We've talked a little about these females before, but I'm even more convinced now that they match. They're medium build with dark hair all over, though it's thinner at the lower back and sometimes looks lighter there because of that. Broad dark face, very bald on top, white beard, mostly straight brows. Ears are big and round. She has kind of a hunched over gait with high shoulders. She has a large infant still with an anal tuft, and a somewhat small juvenile with just a hint of a tuft. She has both a large bald patch in the middle of her back, and also a smaller bald area on her left shoulder.

    (Fem23 and Fem28 are in videos 1 minute apart -- besides having the same features, the time alone makes it nearly certain these are the same female.)

    Fem22:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

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    Fem23/Fem28:

    enter image description here

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    Best videos to see left shoulder bald area: ACP00073yc (Fem23/28) and ACP00071q9 (Fem22)

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I have to admit that I have trouble to see anything specific in both (or three) females. There is nothing obvious against the match proposal, but I would like to look more into the details.

    I have one request for the start (because it's on my "want-to-know" list anyway and it might be important as the already big infant of Fem22 is carried dorsally in February 2013 and the infant of Fem23 and Fem28 (yes, also quite big) ventrally in May 2013. I ask because the time stamp for the latter says 6 a.m. - yet it is full daylight.

    @NuriaM: could you verify somehow the date on the cameras for Fem23 and Fem28 (for my morning collection also the time!)? I would like to be sure about that before looking into physical traits of these females.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    @jwidness, your arguments make sense for me. We are starting to get used to these video quality 😛. Also the long nipple in Female22 and Female28 fit.

    As for Female23 and Female28, I also thought of this possibility, but the timestamp is wrong; as @AnLand said, it can´t be 6 a.m. So I don´t think the timestamp is a reliable argument here 😦. If we agree with this match, we will have this solved.

    only one little thing...female23´s right ear ( ACP00073yu ), doesn´t it look a bit triangular? or is it just the pixel?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    @AnLand, I´m afraid that we can´t know the exact time and date if the timestamp that the camera shows is wrong.

    There might be a possibility though...let me just check it.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    I'm not following here: why is the timestamp wrong?

    DLFem28 arrives at 06:42. at the same place where DLFem23 leaves at 06:43. Ok, it can't be right after video ACP00073yd but who knows how exact those video times are. Maybe it's half a minute or a minute later but I'm really convinced that this is the same female, arriving and leaving the same place within about two minutes.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    In ACP00073yd the juvenile has already left the picture. Isn't it possible that the male just left before DLFem23 and the camera catches just her when she is leaving at 06:43 h? Maybe it's two minutes in between but I never understood why these two videos were considered to be two different females.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    @Boleyn, the time stamp is obviously wrong as it shows 06:42 (a.m.) - yet it is full daylight. That's not true at this time. BUT, I agree with you (and @jwidness) that the time stamp of videos from the same camera and the same period should be the same deviation from reality for all of them. So, I agree that the videos are in the same order, just with a glitch.

    My doubts - or question (as I cannot really see the features, @jwidness is talking about like the bald patch on the shoulder) aims to the date question. That February kid is so big and dorsal ... Why would she carry such a heavy baby ventrally again three months later? Is she still carrying the other one, too? It's the end of the dry season - is it protection? Against heat? Less food ... is it weaker now? (Just wild speculation.)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Concerning the proposal between DLFem22 and DLFem23/28 I'm not convinced, I'm sorry.
    Fem22 is carrying her infant dorsally in February. DLFem23/28 is carrying it ventrally more than 3 months later. Also the features of Fem22 can't be seen clearly.

    My opinion is still that Fem23/28 is a much better match to DLFem1 as discussed widely in this thread: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000idc
    From baldness, ear shape, muzzle, her way to carry the infant, her juvenile down to her fluffy arms. For me everything seemed to fit.... 😦

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Lots to talk about! : )

    First, I'm not sure that the 6:42 am timestamp is necessarily wrong -- although the day length will continue to increase until the solstice, late May/early June actually has the very earliest sunrise of the year here, around 6:25 am. It seems possible that this is actually early morning, and that would explain why the lighting is so terrible. There is also another clip off a totally different camera around the same time of year and same time of day that shows a poorly lit morning scene: ACP0006uqx. As for the date (5/26/2013), this video came off a memory card that was put in place on 5/16/2013, making it also within reason.

    Regardless, the clips showing Fem28 and Fem23 definitely came from the same camera, one right after the other. The cameras have a reset interval that can be customized, so it's hard to know how long exactly between the two videos, but it would have to be between 1 second and 59 seconds. If we agreed that Male4 = Male5 based on the same reasoning, I think it only makes sense that Fem28 = Fem23. In addition to the timing though, Fem23 and Fem28 have the same bald forehead, wide dark face, white beard, and large infant.

    In terms of the dorsal/ventral issue, I don't think the time frame is something to worry too much about. The switch to dorsal is gradual -- we saw at crimson dew, for example, Pearl carry Flocke ventrally briefly in December 2013, even though we saw Flocke dorsal as early as March 2013. I think the size of the infant is potentially a better indicator here. Both in February and in May the infant is quite large, nearly a juvenile (and judging by mom's swelling, there will probably be a new baby in the family before too long as females on average only cycle 3-5 times before conceiving again). In the May videos in particular, the infant is nearly as tall as the juvenile.

    juvenile:

    enter image description here

    infant:

    enter image description here

    I have a couple hesitations about the match to Fem1. Her face looks somehow different to me -- darker maybe, or with less beard? Also, I think perhaps the size difference between her kids is bigger than the infant & juvenile I'm talking about. Finally, Fem1's juvenile (Juv1) seems to have a white beard and dark chin that I don't see in Fem28's juvenile (Juv28). I'm not ready to rule out a match there, but I'll have to think about it more.

    There were a bunch of other females mentioned in the thread Boleyn linked to -- are we still thinking about any of them for this match?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey guys,

    we (or I ) have seen some videos showing wrong dates and timestamps; as I already posted once, I myself have a Bushnells camera at home and it happened to us too very often, even if we had intalled it properly...that´s why I tend to be a bit sceptical with this issue. But you are right about the time interval between both videos, and I can accept that Female23 + Female28 might be the same one (Female23 from now on 😃 )

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Besides not believing in this match proposal (I cannot see any distinct trait), I find the discussion about the ambient light level very engaging.

    I checked some websites. On this date and time, civil twilight is actually passed (sun in zenith over India 😃 ) - that counts here as full daylight. I have no idea what that really means for the mode of the cameras (astronomical calculations and direct ambient light measurements do not necessarily correspond as weather and environment play their roles, I guess). We had strange videos with this overexposed mode as late as 10 a.m. and as early as 4 p.m. I just do not know how this translates into ambient light levels. But @jwidness is right - judging from the position of the sun -> full daylight is possible at this exact date.

    This video ACP0006ovm for instance would border civil twilight on that specific date and is still black/white mode.

    This ACP00050cg is the same bordering civil twilight zone in a forest (different location) in the evening.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks @AnLand 😃

    I see that this match is a bit controversial...

    just an annotation, when I mentioned the timestamp issue, I just wanted to point out that the wrong timestamp possibility exists, as we already noticed some times here. @AnLand posted a thread months ago pointing this out: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP0000002/discussions/DCP00003xk . That said, I don´t want you to think that the data are not reliable, just that technical problems might happen and we must keep this in mind 😃. Sorry if I formulated it wrong, but when I said `I´, I was more refering to my personal experience :S

    I´m afraid that we reach no concensus on this match... 😦

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Well at least we could narrow down the female list by one.

    🐵

    Small progress but better than nothing!

    😄

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    that´s what I call being positive... 😗

    Posted