Chimp & See Talk

Match proposal DL11Juv6 and DL11Juv11 (and mom and sibling)

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    As I said already in the suggestions list, I see some similarities between Juv6 and Juv11 - notably, the triangular right ear, very light muzzle with smallish hairs, and longer sideburns. General body build (so, age) is in agreement. They are seen with a female and a small infant. I think, at least Fem11's brows are also somehow more protruded, baldness fits. I am not sure what it is about her left ear. I see the small abberations in Fem17's ear, but I am not sure whether both fits. There is something on both left ears. Infant size fits.

    DL11Juv11: ACP0006tf9, DL11Juv6: ACP00079ut

    enter image description here

    Juv6's brows look a bit more pointy in the screenshot, but it does not look that way in the video

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks @AnLand,

    these juveniles look certainly very similar. I cannot tell for sure about the females, but the infants size fit too. I agree with this match 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Nice work!! So, Female17/Infant16/Juvenile11 + Female11/Infant10/Juvenile6?

    Adding some visuals for the comparison...

    Female11/Infant10 from ACP00079us:

    Female11/Infant10

    Female16/Infant17/Juvenile11 from ACP0006tfc:

    Female16/Infant17/Juvenile11

    What about Female32 + Infant27 + unnamed juvenile, also? Full sequence: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/collections/CCPL0000ky
    This was discussed previously as part of a larger pool of sequences at http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000lj8 and I apologize I don't have time right now to dig through and extract the relevant bits, but I can come back to it this evening if it isn't clear.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Hm, about Female32 + Inf27 -> I don't really feel comfortable with (almost) only a back view and in general with the SD cameras. I based my proposal more on the juvenile (with supporting features of the female) and the juv's face is not seen.

    But I definitely see the very protruded brows of the female. I was thinking that the juvenile looks bigger, but with looking closer, I am not sure about that. Back view and swelling of the female and size of infant fit.

    I scrolled briefly through the other discussion: I don't see the same facial features in Female6. Her face is somehow flat (muzzle and brows). The brows of Female7 look very protruded, but also here: I do not like it to propose a match only because of one very general feature. Also her face look somehow grayer. And I doubt that we can match the infants. I will look later into the juveniles again, maybe they can tell something.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    My argument with Female7 would be: none of the older juveniles has a very light muzzle. If Juv15 is Kibu (proposed by @jwidness), then one of the infants should be Bohe; and Ilsa around. The infants do not have the same size. One is clearly bigger. Yet, if I compare Infant10 on mom's back with Bohe, they should have the same size.

    That also means Female7 might be Ilsa or the mom of the other two.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    That thread was from some time ago, and we've learned more about the different individuals since, so some of it will no longer be relevant. I just like to, when we have a match of previously discussed chimps like this, look back at other related proposed matches to try to wrap up multiple loose ends, if we can. 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    if we all agree with Female17/Infant16/Juvenile11 + Female11/Infant10/Juvenile6 being a match, we could think of naming the female and the juvenile, and leave the infant until the end of the site, what do you think?

    Now I am only talking about Female17&co. + Female11&co match proposal:

    correct me if I am wrong, but here the ones who participated:

    @Boleyn found Fem17/Infant16/Juv11 in Chimp family at a termite mound

    @AnLand found Female11/inf10/juv6 in Mom + Inf + Juv and suggested the match between them both here.

    @Ksigler supported the match here.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    That infant with the big domed head pale muzzle & big light colored ears that stick out from it's head seemed distinctive to me all along but there seem to be size differences to the domed head infants so I've not been able to sort them out.

    Should #DL11Female6 #DL11Infant5 from ACP00070gd be added to this match? Fem has a left ear nick and protruding brow and white hair on sides of the mouth, infant that similar head, ears, coloring. Also a juvenile is following along with them in ACP00070ge

    domed head inf and mom

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    I forgot that we had a long discussion about the boxy headed infant and family here:

    http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000lj8

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I propose the following names: Raminta for the female and Rowney for the juvenile.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Fem17 + Fem11 = RAMINTA

    Juv11 + Juv6 = ROWNEY

    Inf16 + Inf10 = TBN (to be named).

    Thanks @AnLand!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    @Snorticus, do you think that DL11Female6 + infant5. are Raminta and infant? To me it could be possible, only I see Female6 a bit thinner than Raminta...Fem6 had a small white spot on her left leg, right? if only we could find it in Raminta 😦

    Thoughts?

    thanks!!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Nice names for these two!

    NuriaM - I guess I'm thinking that Inf16 looks to me very like Inf5 Big domed head, fairly straight pale brows over dark eye area, pale muzzle and ears which are large and stick out, skinny legs with somewhat sparse hair.
    But we only see the head of Fem 17 and the camera quality may be too low to tell if these two match. Are there differences between these infants that I am missing?

    Infant 16
    infant16

    Infant 5 Infant5

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    you mean Female 17 (Raminta) and Infant 16. The former Female16 and Infant 17 are now Tyra and Toby 😃

    Hmmm...I agree with you about the infants, and the female´s face look same dark. The female´s rears look very alike too. Personally I tend to be reticent when it comes to base my assumptions only on rears and infants, but must admit that in this case I see many possibilities, as the female´s faces (despite the video quality) do look similar to me...

    I need to read more opinions...

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Wow, I agree that those infants look exactly the same (good job, @Snorticus !). The body shape, size, movement, head, and bare patches on the legs. Especially the large bald spot on the right knee. You can see it in Inf16 in the photo Snorticus posted above, and even better in the video at :12 seconds. ACP0006tfc

    Inf16

    Here it is clearly in Inf5. ACP00070gd

    infant5

    Normally I find infants hard to match, as at various ages, many of them have large heads with prominent ears and lighter faces... but the hair patterns on the legs here are unique. And with the rest of the family, it's pretty convincing that this is also Raminta & her offspring.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    More supporting evidence.. the rear view of Fem6/Inf5 ACP00070ge:

    Fem6/Inf5

    And the rear view of Raminta + Inf10 ACP00079ut :
    Raminta & Inf10

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Well good grief, that was sloppy. I edited the ID numbers. Thanks for figuring out what I meant, NuriaM and ksigler for noticing that bald knee spot - they just struck me as being the same infant. I've been on vacation this week & got in a hurry on that post. Fun can be so distracting 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP00070fh 7-6-2013 8:42

    Is this possibly Raminta & family having looped back and then passing by again 7 minutes after ACP00070gd which I said earlier I think is Raminta & family?

    Rowney like juvenile - similar size body and white rounded anus has a white protrusion on the top, dark eye mask, light rounded muzzle. Rowney also has hair tufts that stick out on the elbows. This is 4 months later than the good view of Rowney in ACP00079uu on 3-9-2013 so he looks a bit more filled out than then to me.

    Raminta and un-numbered female - Same scruffy rear with white marks on the left side and her body shape is similar, she holds her shoulders high and her head lower when viewed from the side. I think I her left ear is not perfectly shaped though I can’t actually see the nick clearly. Her brows protrude like Raminta’s.

    ACP00070gd #DL11Female6 #DL11Infant5
    ACP00070gd

    ACP00070fh Un-numbered female and Infant and Juvenile
    ACP00070fh Un-numbered female and Infant and Juvenile

    Infant 5 and Infant 16 and infant 10 compared with this un-numbered infant - very active infant like infant 5, no good preview shots but I think the right knee has a white spot on it seen just as it lands on the ground. Size seems right and the legs are skinny with sparse hair, big head and pale ears.

    The video quality is low and they move quickly with not the best previews so I could be mistaken about this family being Raminta’s but I thought I’d put it out there.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    I doubt that this is the same family. Her swelling looks much bigger than the one from DL11Female6 and the juvenile (with already visible testicles) looks quite a bit older than Rowney.

    I cannot really tell you what it is, but I think that this is Tyra with Toby and her older kid (the one from here: ACP0006m8z). There is something with her head and neck movement, something with the juvenile's left ear ... The only surprising thing for me - if true! - would be that Toby is actually doing something. Just a quick opinion.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Hah! Agreed about "slow Toby" 😉

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hm...to me the juvenile here ACP00070fh looks a bit bigger. Female and infant pass by very quickly, and in this case I would be very cautious.

    but Female6 is now hashtagged. Thanks @Snorticus!!

    Posted