Chimp & See Talk

**Juvenile at Dry Lake with bare spot on right shoulder

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    While checking some videos, I've seen that the juvenile without temp ID in ACP00072fg (he is in the video at the beginning and leaves then) has a quite big bald spot (no hair) on the right shoulder.

    Better seen in the video

    enter image description here

    The juvenile in ACP00077ok (here the juvenile further from the camera, who has the camera reaction and leaves in ACP00077on) has the same spot. As we now have a real face view, we could try to check whether he is DLJuv15 who enters (re-enters?) in ACP00072fh

    enter image description here

    DL11Juv15 in ACP00072fh

    enter image description here

    Here the face view from the nightjuv. The even face coloration, brows, ears sticking out, tiny bald spot mid-brows ... At least no obvious no-go's.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Hi @AnLand,

    so you think that the chimp with the bald spot in ACP00072fg = DL11Juv15 in ACP00072fh / i / j = juvenile reacting to camera in ACP00077ok and leaving in ACP00077on ?

    one = one = one

    ACP00072fg / ACP00072fh / ACP00077ok

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, I am pretty sure about ACP00072fg and ACP00077ok - because of the bald spot on the shoulder. (Body size fits and nothing speaks against.) And because of the face view of the youngster in ACP00077ok, I suggest that we compare now with DL11Juv15 in ACP00072fh etc. I always suspected that it is the same juvenile as in ACP00072fg (because it makes sense), but now we can determine whether that is true and I see the same face, brows, balding, ears - as well as body size. So, yes, I think, we can match them to one individual.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    I actually disagree with ACP00072fg being part of this match. In addition to the bald spot on the shoulder (both shoulders), I also see an almost hairless right wrist and (in the moment when s/he looks up while passing the camera) no bald spot above the brow. The wrist and brow:

    wrist brow

    I also find the shoulder bald spot in the night scene to be rather negligible. This is a curved joint area where I think it may be just as likely for any chimp to have a sometimes visible part (especially when they are on both shoulders) as a bald spot. True bald spots can also be temporary, if due to hair breakage, so I don't put a lot of weight on them, and think we have to consider them all if we're considering one... which brings me to Juv15.

    The chimp from the night scene does resemble Juv15 in the ways described. Juv15 also has a complex bald patch on the top of the left forearm near the elbow. This isn't seen in the night scene. However, as I mentioned above, this could be temporary from rough play, so I wouldn't say it necessarily excludes the match, but it's something else to look for in other potential matches.

    So, in short, I feel only the juvenile from the night scene and Juv15 are potential matches here.

    (Edit: added photos)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I have to agree with Kris here that the juvenile leaving the scene in ACP00072fg is not the same as Juv15. As Kris describes, there is probably no bald spot in the middle of the brows and if there is one, it's smaller than the one of Juv15. The pic is a bit pixelated. Additionally I think the brows are really different. Juv15 has rather straight, wide brows while this one here has arched, more narrow brows. The hair too seems to be more uneven all over the body as Juv15's hair.

    I'm not sure how I have to read the body language: ACP00072fg is guarding her/himself and knows s/he get hit by Juv14. Juv15 though when he comes into the picture shows no fear of Juv14. He looks very confident and Juv14 leaves. If this was the same juvenile wouldn't Juv14 rather try to scare her/him off again?

    Juvenile in ACP00072fg
    enter image description here

    Juv15: brows seem to be wider with a straight line in the middle.

    enter image description here

    As for ACP00077ok beeing a match to Juv15 I could agree. It's the same fearless show-off behaviour and the traits fit. I think his buddy might as well be Juv14. We can clearly see two little male butts 😃 (of course I know this is not enough for a clear match between this one and Juv14) just an assumption.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi girls,

    I also have my doubts about the submissive juvenile in ACP00072fg being Juv15. In addition to all said, I see juv15´s ears and face in general a bit darker. Also, Heidi, what you pointed out about their behaviour is a good point. Juv15 looks much more confident in relation to Juv14 than the first juvenile.

    I see similarities between Juv15 and the night chimp. Also, I was thinking of juv14 too (like Heidi says) after looking at their face coloration: the night chimp closer to the camera has a dark mask aroung his eyes, like Juv14...

    look at their masks:

    juv14: enter image description here

    first juv: enter image description here

    juv15: enter image description here

    juv behind: enter image description here

    I see Juv15´s face coloration sort of more homogeneous, while Juv14´s face has a clear dark mask, which might fit to both night chimps 😕

    Let´s see if some new volunteers weigh in here after reading this week´s blog post 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I would like to push this thread a bit.

    this is the agreed situation:

    first juv in ACP00072fg: excluded as DLJuv15

    juv14 and juv15 = juveniles in ACP00077ok

    @AnLand, you started this thread and proposed this match, would you like to name them?

    thanksj!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Thanks! I would like to name him Crispin (DLJuv15 and ACP00077ok / ACP00077on)

    But I do not agree to exclude the juvenile from ACP00072fg. This is a two-minute sequence and with two females, 2 infants, and two juveniles spending time together. There is no indication that other chimps are around and it does not make sense that a third juvenile standing next to the camera and is not allowed in. I think the baldness on the shoulder is important and a trait.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks @AnLand, #Crispin fits him 😃

    we can discuss more about the juv in ACP00072fg being Crispin too; your arguments make sense to me. However, I see no clear evidence, only assumptions that, as logical as they might be, they are (to my taste) not conclusive. But this discussion is of course open 😃

    What about the name for DL11Juv14?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Excellent name - Crispin - for this young chimp @AnLand

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Hey Kris, I have just realized that we still need a name for DL11Juv14!

    You have participated in this discussion, would you like to give us a name? I don´t know how many chimps you have already named in Dry Lake 😕

    Thanks!

    Posted