Chimp & See Talk

DBMale02d(DBMale02?)--White pigmented muzzle male

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP0007koh jwidness found this clip with a chimp closeup view of a white pigmented face. I think it's this male chimp with white pigmented face seen in ACP00087hk although this male moves quickly I can see some similarities. May not be enough for an acceptable ID but in my opinion they are the same chimp.

    1 - pigment extends higher on the right side of his nose

    2 - he has a lighter strip of hair in the middle of his crown running down to a dip in his brow. The closeup view is from below which exaggerates the brow dip while from afar the lighter strip of head hair obscures the actual extent of the curved protruding brow.

    3 - both keep their lower jaw dropped exposing the bottom gum and bottom teeth in the clips

    4 - from what I can see, the ears look fairly regular and undamaged

    ACP0007koh Closeup on pigmented face

    enter image description here

    ACP00087hk Pigmented face male, no good previews better seen in the clip

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    We already started a discussion about ACP00087hk here http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000p/discussions/DCP0000qy8 (I am undecisive for that video at the moment in this older discussion).

    I actually don't believe in this new matching proposal here. a) I think, the male (if male!) in ACP0007koh looks much older, the male in ACP00087hk seems to be a younger and rather slim male. b) the brows in ACP00087hk are straigther than in ACP0007koh (this chimp really has rounded brows). The ears are less prominent in the "older" fellow and my impression - unsupported by the camera footage - is that the older one is more massive.

    Despite of this - my impression after two weeks at Dawn Bird is that quite a lot of chimps do have a pigmentation problem. Or maybe, it is for most of them not a pigmentation problem but a slightly lighter muzzle that appears in the black-and-white footage much more prominent and severe than it really is.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Maybe my comments need to be moved to that discussion but I don't see a notch in the closeup right eyebrow of ACP0007koh where it should be easily seen if it is the same chimp. Nor do I see it in ACP00087hk but that chimp moves quickly and it could be there but blurred. The nostrils are not 'V' shaped in either chimp. In my thinking these two chimps are not a match to the two chimps you matched to begin that discussion (which I agree are a match).

    As to the body size differences: I think the chimp in ACP0007koh looks bigger due to the limited view of just his head and a bit of shoulders. Looking down the arm in such close proximity to the lens causes a foreshortening of the arm shape which in turn causes it to appear more robust than in ACP00087hk where the whole body is seen without lens distortion at a distance. Secondly, we may be seeing piloerection as he is anxious about encountering the strange camera. This piloerection may also be obscuring the ears as the sideburns are bristled.

    The camera angle looking up into the chimp's face from the chin and the close proximity also emphasize the separation of the brow ridge whereas in ACP00087hk the camera is much farther away at an angle of view parallel to the face. I think the distance also causes the pale hair on the center of the head to blend into the brow ridge, softening the dip. The light is very flat overall in ACP00087hk minimizing the delineation that can be seen in the contrasty light of the closeup, in other words pre-dawn or post-dusk skies soften all the shadows and flatten the 3 dimensional effects at a distance.

    These chimps are still pretty new, so probably more viewing is needed, but that is my initial reasoning on these two.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @Snorticus In the video comments I've written that I think I have seen that face already. Now I'm pretty sure I found it again. Therefore I'd like to add this chimp here as a possible match to the white muzzle man:

    Videos ACP0007icm and ACP0007icp

    enter image description here

    He's got that same pattern of the white in the muzzle which is a bit more prominent on the right side of his nose. Although this one is not approved as male I'm quite sure he is actually male. He's in the same video as Rai (second video) Opinions?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    But that was not all 😃
    Here's another video ACP0007twp of a big male which could also be a match. Same pattern in the white. It's difficult to describe them further because of the very different light conditions, but just something to discuss. Thanks!

    enter image description here

    Oh I almost forgot: Here for comparison and discussion about the dark spot in his right eybrow the secreenshot I made from male ACP00087hk

    enter image description here

    AS I look at all of them now, I'm pretty sure @AnLand was right: This one here has much straighter eyebrows than ACP0007koh , ACP0007icm and also ACP0007twp

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    @Boleyn, are you sure? Both your males are quite bald and neither the older nor the younger white muzzle guy are similar bald. I would not classify them as bald at all. I mean, hair loss can happen to all of us (well more the guys ...), but that notion would get us in quite a conflict with matching.

    The chimp from ACP0007koh has such a thick head hair that you don't see the right ear.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Comparing ACP0007icp with ACP0007koh I agree the white pigmentation pattern is higher on the right side of the nose in both chimps. The closeup chimp in ACP0007koh however looks to have more hair and has whiskers in front of the ears while the chimp in ACP0007icp looks quite bald and has no side whiskers in front of the ears.

    Closeup face chimp and ACP00087hk have a wider, paler, and more protruding brow ridge than I see in ACP0007icp. Overall I think ACP0007icp chimp's pigmentation is not white enough to be a match to either ACP0007koh or ACP00087kh

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The adult chimp in ACP0007icp might be female. Body build is not so robust as the males here, I cannot see testicles, and there is a juvenile following that seems to react to the camera and changes its way. I looked for nipples, but I am not sure whether I see them. Just a feeling.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    ah sorry, I must have been to fixated on that white muzzle pattern to pay too much attention to the hairs. So we might have 2, 3 or even more chimps with very similar muzzles?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all!
    Sorry for the delay in this thread.
    Let give them temporary names.

    • ACP0007koh will be DBMale02d (I agree with @Snorticus that he is a match with DBMale02)
    • ACP00087hk is already DBMale02
    • ACP0007icp will be DBUnclear02. I think the pigmentation is different from the others, less "depigmentation" in my opinion.
    • ACP0007twp will be DBMale03. Do you really see depigmentation in that one?? I can not see it... 😕 could be a match with DBMale02b...

    I am going to add them in the list and we can continue talking about them.

    Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I disagree with DBMale02d and DBMale02 as a match. The brows of DBMale02d are in my opinion rounder than in DBMale02. Also his ears, especially the right one, are barely seen from the front view due to the bushy sideburns. DBMale02's ears seem to stick out more.

    In general, I think DBMale02d looks much older and my impression for Dawn Bird is that the rather big less pigmented face parts (very prominently only seen in the black-and-white footage) is rather common.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    True that the different pigmentation is very common, but have the same patron is not that common.
    The features could look very different because of the posture of DBMale02d.

    Anyway, let's wait to watch more videos.

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    @PauDG you pointed me here so I had a look again.

    Regarding DBMale02 and DBMaleo2d if you consider them as a match as well, then it's clearly up to @Snorticus to name him! 😃

    I'm not sure about the match between DBMale03 and DBMale02b. I see the similarities in their looks with the white beard, broad forehead, regular ears but DBMale03 seems to have straigther brows. DBMale02b seems to be younger and darker in color. I think DBMale03 has a grayish back (or is it just the sunlight?) and broader shoulders while DBMale02b is pretty dark all over and seams to be leaner in built. I hope their will be more videos found to be sure. 😕

    DBMale03

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    DBMale02B

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    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes I agree with you @Boleyn , actually they have pretty different face and I also think DBMale02b looks younger than DBMale03... I think it was just that for me they are more similar than DBMale02b with DBMale02 or DBMale02d.

    So, do you also agree with DBMale02 = DBMale02d?

    @Snorticus proposed it, I agreed, but @AnLand disagreed... so more opinions could help. Also we can wait to see more videos, no problem.

    Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    DBMale02 / DBMale02d -- well, it could be a match but I'm not completely sure because I don't see enough of DBMale02d to really compare those two.
    In DBMale02 I miss the white pigmentation especially around the left eye in DBMale02 to say yes to that match, so I made a screenshot just when DBMale02d appears. From this perspective the white is not prominent so I think the white in the stillshot is mainly because of overexposure.

    DBMale02d:

    enter image description here

    Same guy in full light

    enter image description here

    DBMale02

    enter image description here

    Hope that helped!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    I still think DBMale02 & DBMale02d are the same chimp. Thanks @Boleyn for that screenshot of DBMale02d brows! I think that helps illustrate my point that camera angle of view and the close proximity to the camera lens in the very closeup preview make DBMale02d brows look more curved and pale in color (they are overexposed).

    It accounts for the difference in appearance of the brows of DBMale02 at a distance that I think @AnLand is seeing. Comparing your screenshot of DBMale02d before he gets right up close to the camera lens with the view of DBMale02 at a distance - the brows look much more similar.

    I still think the shape of the muzzle pigmentation pattern is the same, but am okay with looking for other clips for this chimp.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all, thanks a lot for your comments, is really nice to know your opinions.
    So I think we should wait a little bit, maybe more videos will come to help us in this disagreement... 😉

    Thanks all!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Is this DBMale02? ACP0007gxv | ACP0007gxx | ACP0007gxz | ACP0007gy1

    Looks like similar facial pigmentation, body size, shape, and color, and large-ish testicles compared to the body size.

    From ACP0007gxx:

    male with light face

    From ACP0007gxz:

    male with light face

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    That body shape & size do look similar. I also think the somewhat flat head, center lighter strip, (thinning hair?) and positioning of the ears looks alike. Brow shape looks about the same. Do you think the pink tinge in the muzzle area is muzzle skin spots or is it video artifact or food or what?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I cannot really say something about the match proposal, but want to say that I (already earlier) thought that "pink tinge" is not a video artefact. The exact color might be an artefact, but I am sure there is some kind of spot. And that would not be a surprise here at Dawn Bird.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    I agree, there is definitely some lightness on the face, but I think the pinkness is probably due to the reflection of the sun (maybe sunset?). The leaves on the ground also look pink, as opposed to the yellow & light-brown we see in other clips.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    in my opinion they totally can be a match, same shape, same flat head, same muzzle color spot, but also with DBMale02d, right?

    What do you all think about this possible triple match?

    I am going to add him as DBMale02e, while we decided about the match.
    Thanks all!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    To me they do look alike. The white spot on DBMale02e 's muzzle is at the same place as the brightest pigmentation on 02d's muzzle in the overexposed picture. Their brows have the same shape. Bodies of 02 and 02e are very similar as well, dark hair, a bit lanky. Finally when you go back to page 2 of this thread and compare the thinning hair between DBMale02 and the screenshot I made of DBMale02d this is the same pattern as well. So yes, I'm for a tripple-match 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    great!! thanks a lot Boleyn

    @Ksigler, @AnLand? what do you think?
    @Snorticus, you were the first proposing the match between 02 and 02d, what do you think about 02e?

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    If the question is about DBMale02, 02d, and 02e.. I don't see the white patch of male02d as going all the way down to the top lip as it appears to in the other 2 males. I also agree with @AnLand that this guy looks larger and older, but it may also be piloerect + the distance to the camera. The large shoulders do seem to match the profile of 02e. Not sure, I'd need more time/evidence to agree on 02d, but that's just me.

    male02d

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    No problem, we have time and we can wait to see more videos.

    But I would prefer don't do the match between 02 and 02e until we decide about 02d, because the match 02-02d was proposed before, and I don't want to to bother anyone because of the name selection...

    Thanks for your collaboration.
    Cheers!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Maybe if we look at some other previews it will help. ACP0007koh in preview 11 DBMale02d is reaching toward the camera. The fluffy slightly lighter arc that we see at the right bottom of the frame is the hair of his forearm. Above that is a small darker arc that is all that can be seen of his left shoulder. This foreshortening of his forearm in the foreground makes it look huge & gives the impression that his shoulders are quite robust and wide.

    In preview 13 - when he lowers his arm we see that the shoulders are actually more narrow & more similar to the somewhat slim build of DBMale02

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    We only have blurry previews to compare the face & brow in different views but DBMale02d they look different when not so close to the camera in a more straight on view - more similar to the perspective we see of DBMale02 face & brow.

    ACP0007koh Preview 10 - His head is not tilted back and the exposure is not so blown out. Head looks flat with some lightness in the center line of the head. I also think he looks younger here where the light is more even, he doesn't look so "scuffed up".

    enter image description here

    ACP00087hk Preview 2 - Blurry - but slightly rounded brow that is lighter than the eye area, wide mouth, flat head, not so wide shoulders - note the fluffy fur on the left forearm.

    enter image description here

    ACP0007gxx Preview 8 and 11 - DBMale02e - Similar body shape. Brow similar, flat head, he has a wide mouth, pale muzzle pigmentation includes the nose. Far & not much detail but I think the same chimp, difficult to be absolutely sure given the video quality and distance.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    thanks a lot all!!

    So, we have Snorticus and Boleyn, who think that Male02d is the same as Male02/Male02e and AnLand and Ksigler who think they are not, or they are not convinced.... (I do think they are the same, I see the same white muzzle patron, but is just an other opinion more 😉 )

    but everyone is convinced about Male02=Male02e right?

    So we can wait more about Male02d (maybe more videos will show up and help us with him), but if you want we can do the match between Male02=Male02e already.

    My concern about that is that Snorticus was the first proposing the match between Male02=Male02d , and Ksigler was the first proposing the match between Male02=Male02e....

    What do you think, should be wait until we are sure about Male02d? until we agree something?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Thank you for the detailed breakdown, @Snorticus . I think, at least for me, I'm just seeing things differently, and the more I look, the more differences I see between male02d and male02. Let me restate them:

    1. I don't see the same lightness on the muzzle of 02d. It seems like there is a darker circle above his (do we even know for sure if male?) right lip, where as the others have lightness all the way across the mouth.
    2. I see ears barely visible from the front (it could be from temporary piloerection of the hair, or the natural trait), where as on the others, the hair looks smoother and the ears are completely visible from the front.
    3. The biggest difference that I now see are VERY rounded brows on a sort of heart-shaped head (the top looks like a sideways peanut), not slightly rounded brows on a flatter head. (see photos)

    male02d male02d

    male02 male02

    On the other hand....

    There is a moment at the very first frame of ACP00087hk where the lightness doesn't appear to cover the entire muzzle of male02.

    male02

    And, as I said before, the profile of the shoulders and backs in male02d in ACP0007koh and male02e in ACP0007gxz look similar to me. That's not enough for me to be 100% sure about a match. However, I don't think we all have to be in agreement for a match to be declared, do we? I'm fine with being outvoted if most others are still sure.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Here is one other view of DBMale02d and that's all the views we have of this chimp. It's a side view but I think it shows that his sideburns are not actually huge and fluffy enough to obscure his ears without piloerection and that extremely close low angle of view. Still - I understand that some of you guys don't see the similarities. I think this is a tough sell with such minimal views and a blurry fast moving chimp and a far away color chimp.

    ACP0007koh Preview 14 - Side view of left ear and not-so-fluffy sideburns

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Well, it shows what his sideburns are like from the side, but it doesn't actually show us what this chimp looks like in any other state or camera angle. I see what you're trying to say, though. 😃 Do you still feel the same about the head and brow shape?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Dawn Bird is a challenging place to match chimps. 😃 Low grade images don't give us a lot of details to work with so I understand our differences in opinion about this match proposal. As I see it, the main shared trait between DBMale02 & DBMale02d is the white pigmented muzzle and the shape of that white area. I think that's a match between these two chimps. I don't see any other features that differ so markedly that it would clearly preclude the match. That said, I understand why you guys think there are, and I'm okay with shelving this as a match.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I lost a bit track ... sorry, @PauDG, I am just posting here, hopefully it's correct.

    This young male seems to have the white muzzle and body build from DBMale02. Not many more details. ACP0007ru7

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi AnLand!

    Here is fine, thanks.

    Looks like DBMale02, with the white spot going higher in the right part.

    We need to decide about DBMale02, 02d, 02e and this one. They are all the same?? DBMale02c was also proposed as match with Male02, but I am not sure about that one, he pass too fast.

    Thanks!

    Posted