Chimp & See Talk

Fem01/01d and Fem01b/DBFem01b2

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hello all,
    we have been discussing about group of females 01x

    Apparently we have 2 very similar females&inf, but with a different gray back patron.

    We are not sure about DBFem01c. We have been talking about her in this thread.

    What do you think?
    Thanks!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    I have been watching these matches again and I would like to discuss that with you.

    It seems that DBFem01b2 and DBFem01b have a notch or cut in the right ear, and to me they have also a quite prominent belly, apart from the gradient gray back.

    And now I found that also DBFem01d seems to have a cut in her right ear, and I find also that she has a rounder belly than for example DBFem01.

    And I find super similar DBFem01 and DBFem01c.

    So my proposal now would be

    • DBFem01b2 = DBFem01b = DBFem01d because of the right ear, the color and the round belly.
    • DBFem01 = DBFem01c because the back color and the slimmer body.

    What do you think??

    Thanks a lot

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I can follow the argumentation and see the same traits. I would love to see DBFem01's right ear too, just to check. I'm also thinking that the muzzle of DBFem01 and DBFem01c is differently colored. She might have some of this slight depigmentation that many chimps of this site show. It does not look so irregular in DBFem01d, 01b2 and 01b.

    I am not sure because of the video quality, but do not really see something against that.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Paula I need to check the videos again and my earlier argumentation about those females and this takes some time. I'll come back as soon as I found the time 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Paula, I had time now to look into the earlier posts and the videos of all five females here.

    Yes, I agree on your proposals:

    DBFem01b2 and DBFem01b was my original proposal anyway and I'm having no problem to add DBFem01d because of the right ear, the color and the round belly.

    Also with DBFem01 and DBFem01c I agree not only because of the same traits but it's also the same place. She seems to head somewhere and travels the same way back. A coincidence maybe but maybe also on purpose.

    I'm very glad we can finally decide on these females. They gave us some headache, didn't they? 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I just realized that we could probably add DBFem03b to the match with Female 01b and the others. Built and color are consistent.
    In some of the videos and one of the stills of her series you can see, that she has also this deformation of the right ear. Also the infant is very much alike in his lying/sleeping position on mother's back.

    enter image description here

    She was first considered to be a match with DBFem03 but that was skipped I understand? What do you think?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    hey, you are right, seems that she has something in the right ear too, and Anja's right ear is intact. Wouldn't be my more secure match ever, because the videos are not the bets, but could be yes

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Paula, are we waiting for more opinions? 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Would be nice... do you mind if we wait until Monday?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Ahh, @PauDG ?!? 😛 I'll forgive you for not agreeing to this 01b=01d idea when I had it, as long as we can finally pull these families together!

    Thoughts on the rest being considered for this part (I'm not as familiar with 01/01c, but can look at them later):

    • Fem01b2 -- tough... probably due to the light. She does look similar, especially to 01b, but I couldn't swear that she's not someone else.

    • Fem/Inf03b -- At the moment, I disagree on this one. The mothers look different in the back to me, and the infant looks larger. See how the infant's feet can reach all the way to the mother's thighs (around :04 seconds here)? And no white tail tuft visible, either.

    Fem03b

    Compare to Fem/Inf01d:

    Fem01d

    and Fem/Inf01b:

    Fem01b

    And does anyone else see a strong resemblance to Elphi?

    Elphi

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    @ksigler you're probably right to exclude DBFem03b from the match with the others, especially with DBFem01d. I was never very convinced of 01d beeing a match to 01b and 01b2 except for the three traits Paula noted.

    The problem with Elphi is that we do not have a close-up of her face. I think the match was made due to her built, color and the shoulder riding infant. I'm shortly before giving up at all to match any of these females to another. The video quality is so poor 😕

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Yes, it's been a challenge. Video quality, plus many times they are far from the camera. I know we're supposed to err on the side of them not being a match until we're certain, but I do think there are probably more that are actually the same. For example, just because an infant likes to ride up on the shoulders sometimes doesn't mean that it doesn't lay down on the mother's back at other times, or even most of the time. With Dawn Bird, we don't have as many time stamps, so we lose the benefit of knowing how things might have changed over time, so we need to rely more on traits that can't change from day to day or month to month (some of which are the details that are hard to see!)

    Anyway, I totally understand your frustration with the females. The full DB chimp clip collection may help, if you haven't used it. Or, there are still plenty of males and juveniles awaiting some of your awesome names. 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    Thanks for the video collection, Kristin! I just don't know if I'm patient enough to endure another round of DB videos...and there is also still the spreadsheet... :>

    I'm sorry if I sounded frustrated, it's just these 01 females which are so hard to tell apart. I'm sure there are at least five or six different chimp moms in total at Dawn Bird but some of them just resist to be given "awesome" names (thanks for that!). The revenge will be mine in case I'll ever get the chance to name one of them >;) 😄 (YOUR awesome list of emoticons is always at hand!)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    What have you done to me? I can't stop going through the videos in that collection. And what did I find? Exactly: another female that fits the 01 series. This female hasn't yet a temporary ID: ACP00083ct

    To be precise: I think it's a match to the DBFem01 and DBFem01c proposal. Same color of arms, face, back and legs. And junior looks also very much alike, same size, big ears, bright muzzle including the nose, darker mask around eyes and inquisitorial look.

    Female in ACP00083ct

    enter image description here

    especially interesting is the sideview:
    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    DBFem01 to compare, but details better seen in the video ACP0007h9e

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Oh man that is tough! but you may be on to something here! what do the others think?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Not as tough as one might think: DBFem01 has the same big breasts as the newly introduced lady. A trait that does not seem to be very common in chimps at all as far as I can judge this 😃

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Hahah, hooked is hooked, right? 😃

    Nice find! I definitely see the resemblance between ACP00083ct and Fem01 and Fem01c. The mothers have the same light face with lighter muzzle, large low-set ears, and the eye-catching appearance of light gray "pants" and dark "shoes." The infant's size and head shape are similar, also.

    Check out these other clips with possibly the same pair. I was trying to match them elsewhere, but seeing your post made me think maybe they were all the same one.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    these females are getting us crazy, but we will do it!!

    So, for summarize, we think that

    a) DBFem01- Fem01c - ACP00083ct - DBFem10 (?) - ACP0007v91 (?)
    b) DBFem01b2 - Fem01b - Fem01d -Elphi (?)

    right?

    @ksigler, sorry if I didn't agree your proposal before 😦 thanks for forgiving me!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @PauDG I think they are not getting us crazy but we are already crazy because we spend so much time about them 😉

    For your summarization:

    a) DBFem10 and ACP0007v91 might be a match to each other but I'm not absolutely convinced that they are a match to Fem01, 01C and ACP00083ct .

    I agree that they both have a mottled muzzle and gray backs and legs. But I miss the brighter parts of their breast/bellys and shouldn't the breasts be better visible? I'm not sure, maybe it's only the different light and the color videos?? And hell, she's moving so fast in ACP0007v91...

    b) built and color are consistent with Elphi but is this enough to make the match since we have no clear face views of Elphi?

    Still confused 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    hahha, me too!

    What we can do is do the match between DBFem01- Fem01c - ACP00083ct , and we keep DBFem10 and ACP0007v91 potential/proposed matches. If we can not be sure there is not problem on leaving it like that.

    About Elphi and the rest. I don't know if we are going to be able to solve this. Let's try a little bit more, just to see if we find something (even a little think) that helps us to accept or refuse the match.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    @Boleyn, @Ksigler, @AnLand

    I am going to add the match between DBFem01- Fem01c - ACP00083ct to the list. I don't know who was the first proposing that match. Do you remember? Could one of you select a name for the female please?

    Many thanks 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I already named three individuals at Dawn Bird, so I am out anyway. 😃 (I am also pretty sure that I did not make the suggestion first.)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    uhm, yes it's a bit complicated - but what do we expect with THIS ladies? 😉

    I really don't know who made the first proposal for 01 and 01c. We both made some efforts 5 months ago but both not with this particular constellation. What do you think @ksigler? My suggestion would be that Paula picks the name herself? 😄

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    It's great to lock down this match, but are we sure that these 2 aren't matches with anyone else (the other Fem01s or others)? Just don't want to make things even more complicated! If so, Paula was the first to suggest this specific 01/01c match and @AnLand agreed in this thread.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    hi all!
    we are not sure yet, but we can add more females to the match after, no problem. It's just to start somewhere 😉

    Thanks Boleyn, would be an honor. I am going to ask to 2 new citizen science (we need a name for the female and for the infant), If we don't find any, I would select a name.

    Thanks a lot!!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    @jim_pea, @pelo, would you like to name DBFem01/Fem01c/ACP00083ct and her infant? You can find them in the chimp list as "name? DBFem01 & DBInf01 / DBFem01c & DBInf01c"

    Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Come on Paula, don't wait any longer and name that lady and her infant already. You deserve it! 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, please!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Ok! Many many thanks.

    I received a request from a very special person who would like to name a chimp Schumi , so that it's the perfect moment and the perfect name for DBInf01.

    And for the female DBFem01, I would like to name her Nana if it's ok you you guys

    Many thanks! we appreciate it a lot 😄

    @jim_pea, @pelo we will find more chimps that you can name.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Lovely names, Paula, I'm sure the little one will soon be the fastes chimp in the forest 😄

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    😉 Thanks!

    Posted