Chimp & See Talk

Male with balding forehead and back

  • hoothoot by hoothoot

    His face is dark, the brows rounded, the head is broad. The bald spot on his forehead runs from the left brow to the right brow in an arch, which appears pointy at the highest point. More prominently, there is quite a big bald patch on his back which spans from his buttocks all the way to the middle of his back; the backside of his legs/thighs looks bare as well. This bare patch on his back can also be seen from the side, making his fur appear grey from the lower half of his back downwards. The right ear appears to be undamaged, rounded, with a top rim that looks slightly folded. I'm not sure if his (upper) cheeks are bare or if the fur on them is so light that they only appear bare (clean shaven) from afar.

    ACP000bpu5 ACP000bpu7 ACP000bpu9 ACP000bpuc

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    Of course such a handsome male is not without company, in this case I think Saor....

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    ....and Waldemar ! (first appearance in ACP000bpuc)

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    Posted

  • hoothoot by hoothoot

    ACP000bpzf

    Judging from the baldness of the back and backside of the thighs and from the shape of the ischial callosity (which looks like a flatter triangle), the male who appears later on screen could be him again.

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    compared to ACP000bpu5

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    Full sequence ACP000bpzc ACP000bpzd ACP000bpze ACP000bpzf

    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    I agree about Saor and Waldemar. Any chance this unknown guy might be RSMale05?

    one

    Better seen in the videos: ACP000cc4a and ACP000cc49

    Something about the bald spot and the raised nose ridge appears similar but I think you all should weigh in. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Could we take another look at these?

    Full set:
    ACP000bpu5 ACP000bpu7 ACP000bpu9 ACP000bpuc

    ACP000bpzc ACP000bpzd ACP000bpze ACP000bpzf

    ACP000bq00 ACP000bq01

    In the first minute, it looks to me like the grimacer is Jaman. But his buddy looks like Caesar to me rather than Saor -- sleek dark hair, not quite so robust, flat back (rather than rounded). And after he leaves, then Waldemar shows up.

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    In the second minute, the first two clips show almost nothing, but at the end, I think it's Jaman returning, then actually Saor, Upala, and a juvenile.

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    In the last minute, a medium build male walks by, followed by Waldemar. The first male here could be Caesar, compare ACP000bmic.

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    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Hey @jwidness ACP000bpu7 ACP000bpu9 - I was just looking at these as I remembered thinking the mouth area looked oddly "puffy" and wondered if it might be an example of 'bulging-lips face' that I recently ran across. They all seem pretty agitated and Goodall says they make this face sometimes before an attack.

    Anyway, i was trying to compare faces in other clips and noticed the deeply set eyes look more like Caesar's and the brows look more rounded than Saor's. The overall face appears quite large which I think may be due to this 'bulging-lips face' expression and that may be why we originally thought this was Saor with his big square face.

    http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/publications/articles/Parr_etal_2005.pdf

    From page 81:

    Bulging-lips face: bulging lips, lips pressed tightly together with arching upper-lip, jaws firmly clenched (see also attack-face, van Hooff, 1962; tense mouth face, van Hooff, 1967)

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    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    For ACP000bpu7 and ACP000bpu9 (at the moment: Saor, but debated here). I agree that he does not really look like Saor and there is a resemblance with Caesar. But even more I see the same lips (very close to beard), brows, body build and especially the white beard in RSUnclear02 (videos: ACP000bt11 and ACP000bt12). I am still debating with myself whether that is indeed Caesar too, just the beard more prominent illuminated, but I am not still not sure.

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    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    I agree with the IDs you suggest @jwidness and would be happy to tag as such if others agree. Definitely looks more like Caesar than Saor. As for his face, I agree that it looks a little distorted but I don't really see the compressed-lips or bulging-lips face. The reasons are that we would normally expect to see that facial expression during a display or high-arousal situation, so it should be accompanied by pilo-erect hair, swaggering, charging, or other display signals. Instead, he looks alert but pretty calm here. It seems he might have a mouthful of food instead. Same goes for Waldemar when he climbs down. So it's hard to know exactly what was happening without the full context, but it may be that Jaman's whimpering interrupted Caesar and Waldemar's feeding session and they climbed down with mouths full of food to see what was going on.

    I am always so amazed by how much food chimps can fit in their mouths and how much they can stretch their cheeks and lips. ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

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    Edit: About your suggestion about RSUnclear02 @AnLand - could be, but Caesar's sunken in eyes seem really distinctive to me and looking at the series of videos above again, I see that feature in the male above. I'm not so sure if I see it in RSUnclear02 but I could be wrong.

    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    Okay, I tagged as @jwidness suggested above, with the exception of Caesar because it seems we may not have consensus on that ID. Also, I didn't tag Caesar in ACP000bq00 either because I'm not 100% sure on the butt comparison but definitely could be him! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

    Any more thoughts on Caesar/RSUnclear02?

    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    Checking back in to see if anyone has thoughts here. Please also bear in mind this discussion about Caesar and Herbert! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Iยดm not sure if I see Caesar in ACP000bq00 . Their bald patches of the right hind leg look different when walking:

    Left: Caesar ( ACP000bmic ) , right: ACP000bq00

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    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    My thinking here is that we might have mixed two males. I agree that ACP000bq00 is rather not Caesar as I miss his smaller hips. But could it be that this is actually Jaman and the guy we tagged in ACP000bpze as Jaman is actually Caesar? They are both in this sequence and I see Caesar first (with the smaller hips) and later Jaman.

    Here Jaman (the one in the middle) in ACP000bhcl.

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    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    @AnLand, it would be good to get more input on that. Every time I see the male tagged as Jaman climbing up, it appears to me to be Jaman's flat face and open mouth, but I am open to your suggestion as well.

    For the record, I would still strongly support tagging Caesar-Herbert in ACP000bpu5, ACP000bpu7, and ACP000bpu9. But if we lack agreement I will leave this male untagged.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I would tag the guy in ACP000bpu5 , ACP000bpu7, and ACP000bpu9 as Caesar. He looks not so robust, his straight brows + head shape, deep-set eyes, homogeneous fur color... I can understang why Saor was first proposed, but I think Saor is acually bigger, his brows shorter.

    Caesar seems a good option to me ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Nuria, you agreed here that ACP000bpu9 is Caesar, but you tagged it Saor

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    yes, sorry, I didnยดt remember. Thanks ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

    Posted