Chimp & See Talk

The odd couple (a small juvenile and a large juvenile)

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I noticed quite a number of videos with a small juvenile, almost an infant still, and a large juvenile/subadult, without an apparent mom around. They're seen with Nyack on a number of occasions, but also sometimes just the two of them. I have a lot of videos noted as them, but rather than post all of them at once, I'll just start with some of them and hope that makes it easier to deal with. The older juvenile is definitely a male, the younger one seems to be male as well.

    On 10/15/2012, with Nyack:

    Around 7:30, the kids show up at the tree. From one side, we have ACP000bata (found by jurassicworld), and from the other side, ACP000b6zj.

    Older juv in ACP000bata:

    enter image description here

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    Younger juv in ACP000b6zj:

    enter image description here

    Nyack shows up a little after 8 (the kids are still up in the tree) in ACP000bb42 (found by @AnLand):

    enter image description here

    Soon after, they all leave:

    older juv leaves in ACP000baut (found by jim pea)

    Nyack and the younger juv in ACP000b79s and ACP000b79w (found by Henrik87)

    A few days later, they're again seen at the tree with Nyack:

    In ACP000bakv and ACP000bakz (found by Henrik87), we see all three of them. Here the younger juv is on the left, the older juv is in the middle, and Nyack's feet are visible on the right:

    enter image description here

    Then we run into the scene Snorticus asked about with the vocalizations (from the other side of the tree):

    ACP000b78m, older juv on the left, younger one in the tree:

    enter image description here

    In ACP000b77t (found by Dana23), you can see a bit more of the younger one as he leaves.

    A few more days later and they're again at the tree with Nyack:

    ACP000baqy and ACP000baqz (found by Orohena) show Nyack, then the younger juv.

    enter image description here

    A minute later, the older juv shows up in ACP000bay6:

    enter image description here

    In ACP000baf2 and ACP000baf3 (found by GeWe and CorCaroli), Nyack and the older juv leave:

    enter image description here
    enter image description here

    These guys are seen a bunch more times on these cameras, I'll try to find the ones with good screenshots, but many of them just show their backs 😕

    Brief description:
    The older juvenile has a fairly large scrotum considering his body size. He has pretty decent sideburns, and a somewhat rectangular face. Dark-ish facial skin, somewhat lighter ears with no damage, and lighter fingers and toes still. Fairly straight brows with a little baldness in the middle. His bottom lip sticks out just a bit.

    The younger juvenile looks way too small to be without mom. He's got very fluffy hair and his belly always looks super round. Pale face and hands.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    As I noted yesterday: both juveniles are male. Penises seen in my opinion.

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Hi @jwidness ... WOW! You've got a real knack for weaving these stories together in a presentable way. The trio of Nyack and the two juveniles is really interesting! I don't believe it's particularly out of the ordinary to see a juvenile (like the larger one) associating frequently with an adult male (it's possible they might be brothers?), but to also see such a YOUNG juvenile also associating with another juvenile so closely is really interesting and surprising with no mom in sight of any of the videos.

    I'm inclined to call this a match because of the uniqueness of these individuals appearing together so frequently and the absence of any discordant features that would suggest they're not a match.... however also in absence of any particular physical features that really removes doubt that it is possible that they could be separate individuals I am hesitant to make that jump. If you can provide some good comparative screenshots @jwidness that can convince me, the match is all yours! I'll hold off for now on even assigning temporary names.

    Also @AnLand , do you have particular videos+ timestamps that you could lead us to that removes any doubt about the sex for these individuals? That would be really helpful! 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Here is one set for the older juvenile (one minute after the first scene mentioned by @jwidness) ACP000b6on, ACP000b6oo, ACP000b6op - I see clearly testicles and @jwidness herself tagged them as male. I try to find the penis videos again. They were in the long Nyack posting.

    EDIT: No, it was in the CFMale02 posting: ACP000b6yb, ACP000b6yc, ACP000b6ye, ACP000b6yg - in older juvenile in ACP000b6ye with a visible penis. Need to find the scene for the little one later.

    Here is another one ACP000baxw, but that's also the older juvenile. As I think, I have seen something like this, I probably confused the videos and the juveniles. I looked through all videos I know of and cannot find one that specifies the sex of the little one. The older one is clear for me.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I'll look for more screenshots, but it's not so easy going through the matched camera videos. The feature of the juvenile that most sticks out for me is that his lower lip juts out a bit. Seen most easily in ACP000bata and ACP000bay6.

    As for the male-ness of the older juvenile, there was a discussion about it relating to one of the clips I mentioned in the first post: DCP0000v26

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    A few more screenshots:

    The older one has a dark narrow face, a V-shaped wrinkle/groove under his nose, a pale spot in the center of his lips, lower lip sticks out a bit (visible best in profile).

    ACP000b6pf

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    ACP000b6y3

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    ACP000b6ti

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    ACP000b72r

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    The younger one I'm still having trouble finding a great shot of. He's fluffy and round with a darker face, but pale ears/hands/feet.

    ACP000baz2 -- great video to see both of them, though the preview is blurry

    enter image description here

    The video that makes me think male on the younger one is ACP000bb9g.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000bady Just ran across this one found by @hoothoot climbing a tree. It's a male with grey back & large rounded scrotum along with an odd barrel bodied, skinny legged, juvenile with a scraggly tuft. I think they may be your little kid and Nyack.

    ACP000bady Preview 13 Not great but shows the young one.
    enter image description here

    ACP000bady Preview 0 Male's rear, grey back, trio round knobby butt shapes, looks like Nyack.

    enter image description here

    ACP000b6t3 Preview 8 Here is Nyack's rear and grey back for comparison. Thin upper inner leg hair, trio of rounded knobby rear structures.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Yes, that was in my list, I'm sure that's them again : )

    And another video from the recent stream: ACP000b6zy, tagged by @Snorticus, and again by @Dana23

    This is the older juvenile, but the whole story is all three of them again. From one side we have ACP000b6zp, ACP000b6zt, ACP000b6zw, ACP000b6zy showing Nyack's back, the little one, and the older one. And from the other side we have ACP000bb5g, ACP000bb5h, ACP000bb5i, ACP000bb5j showing Nyack's lower half, the little one, and some good footage of the older one. (Videos variously tagged by @zoogirl1, @Henrik87, @occipitalCat, and @ksigler )

    Nyack's back

    enter image description here

    the older one

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    from the other side, Nyack's lower half and the little one

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    the older one

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Cross-posting -- CFJuv02 and CFJuv03, seen with CFFem05 are this pair of juveniles again.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Not great views but I think another instance of Nyack and the 2 juveniles together here. Possibly another adult.

    ACP000b6nb and series continues ACP000b6nc ACP000b6nd

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Totally agree -- the ones you posted are the videos from the other side of some I posted earlier ( ACP000baqy and ACP000baqz, 10/20/2012 6:42). : )

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    @Dana23 and @hoothoot found and mentioned these guys - your odd couple again? ACP000bahi ACP000bahj

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Definitely agree with ACP000bahi ACP000bahj, and the other one you commented on, ACP000bazt

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Found today by @Dana23 and again by @zoogirl1

    ACP000b6vn Male, juvenile, and infant leaving the same tree. They look like the suspects from behind 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Somewhere here is this video ACP000bb9g already linked, but I do not see it. I just had it for classification and I am pretty sure that I see a penis. So, the infant should be male. (I know, we think this the whole time, but I cannot find that it is confirmed.) Sorry, if I overlooked something.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000b6tf This adult's hand looks to be Nyack's climbing in front of your shrimpy juvenile & your older juvenile. This must be more clips of them. In ACP000b6th shrimpy-juvi does a little vocalization off screen and there are also some faint adult chimp grunts - possibly a talk with Nyack over figs.

    Full sequence: ACP000b6tf ACP000b6tg ACP000b6th ACP000b6ti

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    The three again I think: ACP000balu ACP000balx ACP000balz No face shots, but bodies look the same shapes and sizes. Looks like hair is sparse on the shrimpy juvenile's inner left arm.

    ACP000balu Preview 14 - the little one and the rear of the older juvenile

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Ran across Nyack and these 2 juvenile guys again from the other camera.

    ACP000baj6 ACP000baj7 ACP000baja ACP000bajb

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    I think since we've made it through Cold Fire, I'm ready to come back to this set and call it a match for these two boys! @Snorticus , you've been active in this discussion... would you like to name the older juvenile?

    And @kristinhavercamp , you've been a big help with other matches at Cold Fire, but haven't gotten to name a chimp yet! Would you like to name the younger guy?

    Posted

  • kristinhavercamp by kristinhavercamp scientist

    I didn't see this, but thanks for the message! If no one else wants to name the little one, I would be happy to! How about Johnny?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    Hi @northernlimitptv I too just saw this today & thanks for the ask! If the little one is Johnny how about James for the older one?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    What a cute pair of names. : )

    Makes me a little hungry though -- do you have Jimmy Johns where you live? 😉

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to jwidness's comment.

    Perhaps it's a bit confusing to have such similar sounding names - so how about the less confusing James since I don't think ID tagging of these two has started yet. I had second thoughts over night.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Either way, I like them both : )

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Where did my comment go? I liked how cute the Jimmy / Johnny combination is, but also happy to keep James and Johnny! Updating now, great job everyone! 😃

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    What's the status with these guys? There are even more videos of them besides the ones listed in this thread... ACP000bat2 is the older one, for example.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I am taking charge of these two guys...

    so James for the older one

    and Johnny for the small little bug 😃

    just bring me some light please:

    thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ...sorry, one more thing: have you guys found more videos with them? 😕

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    CFJuv02 is the little one, so Johnny, and CFJuv03 is James. There are lots more videos with them, I don't think I even have a complete list myself.

    Just to get started, here are three more of Johnny: ACP000b6nr, ACP000b6qd, ACP000b6qb

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Also, ACP000b78j should be Nyack hanging out with them.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This is just an opinion: ACP000b6nd looks like a big juvenile. In ACP000b6nb, we see Nyack, a bigger chimp - tagged with James, and the little one Johnny. I think the second chimp, before Johnny, looks really big. More like an adult. But I guess, we go here with the combination. Then ACP000b6nd would be James (or it is James and the other chimp is someone else). The perspective downwards is difficult.

    For ACP000bajb - if you compare closely with ACP000baj7 when James is climbing up - it should be him. (That's all the same minute.)

    ACP000baj7 - James confirmed and clearly visible on the left, Nyack for comparison on the right.

    enter image description here

    ACP000bajb - same size and definitely too big for Johnny and too small for an adult.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Johnny for comparison:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks Anja!!!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    ACP000b6n3 should be James, and I added tags to ACP000b787 ACP000b788 ACP000b773 ACP000b774 ACP000b775, so those don't needCID anymore

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Hm, I think ACP000b6nb is mis-tagged. Nyack is first and Johnny is last, but the male in the middle should be the male we see coming down the tree in ACP000baf5 and ACP000b777. Still not sure who he is though.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    you are right, he´s an adult, so not James.

    the sequence makes sense too. thanks!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Here's another of Johnny: ACP000bb3w

    enter image description here

    ACP000b6rx should be Johnny too -- follows Nyack out of tree, small body size, super fluffy with hair that parts down to the skin on the legs, somewhat bow-legged. He looks bigger because he's so close to the cam, but see ACP000b6tf for comparison.

    enter image description here

    ACP000bb7l ACP000bb7o ACP000bb7q ACP000bb7t ACP000b774 ACP000b6tn ACP000b6tq don't needCID

    Another Johnny pair: ACP000bb4d and ACP000b6m3

    Looks like Nyack and Johnny to me (and follows 10 mins after the previous Johnny video): ACP000bary ACP000barz ACP000bas0 and ACP000b703 ACP000b704.

    More Johnny pairs: ACP000bajd and ACP000b79o

    Part of minute with Nyack: ACP000bakr ACP000bakt and ACP000b7dv ACP000b7dy

    ACP000b7qk should by James, Nyack and Johnny. ACP000b7vz from the other side.

    ACP000b6vu and ACP000bb8w should be Johnny coming out of the tree -- we saw him go up it 5 mins earlier.

    ACP000b6sg ACP000b6sh look like Johnny heading out of the tree 2 mins after Nyack. Compare to videos above for body size.

    ACP000b79z ACP000b7a0 are James and Johnny.

    ACP000b6rz ACP000b6s0 ACP000b6s1 looks like Nyack and the boys.

    ACP000b6ty should be James.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    tagged 😃

    Posted