Chimp & See Talk

Kamala and Bea--AVJuv04.

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    most of the times we see Filou, Marlyn and other juvenile we talk about "the other juvenile", meaning the other juvenile that always goes with them, AVJuv04.

    In "her" Tag Group there are at least 2 different sequences, and I do thing that also the one seen with Marlyn in these videos is AVJuv04.

    If we really think is always her (or at least in these videos), we could give her a name.

    What do you think?
    Thanks for your opinions

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Sorry, I had no time today to look into that. I think, I agree but will look again.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great, thanks AnLand!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi,

    OK, I had a look. There is nothing really special about AVJuv04. It seems to be a girl. She is a bit taller and rounder than Marlyn. The face looks different (but I cannot describe - more girl-like?) and the ears are perfectly rounded, no pronounced "ridges" like Marlyn.

    I think I agree with https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP00018qs, ACP000fw91, ACP000fw92, https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP00017za, ACP000fw3z etc., ACP000fw32 etc., ACP000fw3t etc. (there might be doubles in it, I just went to the discussions and Marlyn videos separately)

    I also think that she is rather AVJuv03b, not Marlyn (face, girl part???, not visible spots, size hardly estimable for me), also in ACP000fw9p should be her not Marlyn.

    As I said, nothing really special. More the three of them together and some consistencies.

    Posted

  • luca-chimp by luca-chimp

    Sorry, Im short in time at the moment. With the above, I would totally agree with @AnLand.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all

    in ACP000fw9p Marlyn is on the back, barely visible. See the sequence here ACP000fw9m, ACP000fw9n, ACP000fw9p. About AVJuv03b I am not sure...

    With the rest I agree.

    Any of you want to name this juv?

    Thanks a lot for your opinions 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I already named Marlyn, I'm good. @bannd67 and @sydself are new(er) volunteers that did not name a chimp, I think. Maybe one of them wants?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    If you both agree, I would propose @lauraklynn to name this chimp, she has been participating in the discussions, but she has not named a chimp yet.

    Posted

  • luca-chimp by luca-chimp

    Yes sure 😃 I had the hounour of Filou ...

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great, I am going to ask her. Thanks!

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    OK. Let's call her Kamala.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Great, thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000f6m7 I think this may be a close look at Kamala, but need some other eyes. The adult seems to have a damaged right ear but it's hard to see, so still not sure if that's Filou. I think the juvenile being groomed could be Marlyn.

    ACP000f6m7 her lower lip protrudes and catches the light, she has a "V" shape to her nostrils, thick pale curved brows, dark eyemask, fluffy head hair, slim legs with a round tummy.

    enter image description here

    ACP000fw3t Compare to Kamala's features though this clip is dark.

    enter image description here

    ACP000f6m7 Here is a side view of this juvenile.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi @Snorticus, I think you are right, they look like Filou, Marelyn and Kamala.

    Has she a scar/little bald spot on her right eyebrow? I think I can even see it in the picture from ACP000fw3t you posted here, but then I can not see it in the video 😕

    We can wait for more opinions and maybe to see the video before or after to be more sure about Filou, but looks good to me.

    Great @Snorticus, thanks a lot 😉

    Posted

  • luca-chimp by luca-chimp

    Such a loving little family. For me it looks like our A-team ...

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    The full series: ACP000f6m7 ACP000f6m8 ACP000f6m9 ACP000f6ma

    ACP000f6m8 I see a white spot on the right wrist of both Filou and also on this adult chimp.

    enter image description here

    ACP000fw32 Compare to Filou's right wrist.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    yep, it's true, he has a bald spot on the right wrist. well seen!

    also in this picture, the cut in the left ear is visible.

    one

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I am going to ad them to the chimp list!

    thanks a lot

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Cross posting from Filou thread:

    Filou leaves, Marlyn follows, and patient Kamala finally gets some nuts!

    ACP000fwfp ACP000fwfq ACP000fwfr ACP000fwfs

    ACP000fwfq Kamala cracks nuts:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    thanks a lot @Snorticus 😉

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Dated 2015-03-03 at 12:44:17

    ACP000esem ACP000eseo ACP000eseq ACP000eser

    Chimp licks the camera, heh - this looks like Kamala - protruding lower lip, dent in right brow, flat nose & upper muzzle, ridge in right ear.

    ACP000esem

    enter image description here

    ACP000f6m7 Compare to profile of Kamala

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I agree, she is Kamala 😉

    Great, thank a lot

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    I think two of the juveniles at this spot are Kamala carrying around tools and nut cracking, and Marlyn pestering her.

    1-27-2015 at 8:37 - ACP000edxo ACP000edxp ACP000edxq ACP000edxs

    ACP000edxs Looks like Kamala with protruding lower lip, flat nose and upper muzzle, ridge in middle of right ear, sparse hair on inside left wrist.

    enter image description here

    ACP000f6m7 Compare to Kamala profile:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000edwj - 1-27-2015 at 8:34 - I think this is the back of Kamala entering and picking up a log

    enter image description here

    ACP000fw46 - Compare rump to Kamala with a little flap at the bottom:

    enter image description here

    ACP000edp3 - 1-27-2015 at 8:35 - And here it looks like Kamala coming back around the tree about a minute later with that log and nuts in her mouth.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi Snorticus,

    I agree with you about Kamala, I think is her.

    What I am not sure it is about Marlyn. Could fit perfectly because they have been seen together several times, but in those videos I can only see 2 more chimps coming but I don't see them well.

    When we will find the next videos will be easier to know about the other, but about Kamala I agree.

    Many thanks!
    Any other opinion? 😉

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to PauDG's comment.

    Hi Paula,

    Please see my reasoning & pics about Marlyn posted separately in his thread.

    https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP000182p

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to PauDG's comment.

    Below is a list of some of the related videos in this spot that I previously posted under the science objects discussion titled "multispecies" that @AnLand started here

    Agree with you that it is a bit confusing as there were several chimps running around:

    For context, this is part of a longer sequence of chimps at this spot (not all listed as some not found yet) on 1-27-2015

    At 8:33 - ACP000edtg ACP000edth ACP000edti ACP000edtj

    At 8:34 - ACP000edwg ACP000edwh ACP000edwi ACP000edwj

    At 8:35 - ACP000edoz ACP000edp1 ACP000edp2 ACP000edp3

    At 8:37 - ACP000edxo ACP000edxp ACP000edxq ACP000edxs

    At 8:40 - ACP000edug

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ohhh so many chimps! it is great, but yes, also confusing.

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I believe this is more of Kamala:

    ACP000eft1
    ACP000eft2
    ACP000eft4

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Hmm, do you think the right ears look different? I think this chimp has an extra bump at the top that Kamala doesn't.

    enter image description here

    Kamala:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all!!!

    I find the faces really similar, I have been looking at them carefully and even the line upper the nose, where the skin starts to be darker, seems to have the same shape, but this thing about the right ear is tricky.

    On the first second of ACP000eft1 the ear looks perfectly round (there is not still image unfortunately), but then, and because of the angle, we can see this bump/line. So I am wondering if that could happen too in the other videos of Kamala.

    But in ACP000f6m7 ACP000f6m8 ACP000f6m9 ACP000f6ma the angle is different and I don't see anything similar, and the other videos are really dark....

    What do you think?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I am going to add ACP000eft1 ACP000eft2 ACP000eft4 for now as AvJuv04b

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Looking at this again, perhaps that's some sort of debris in the hair or on the ear? It almost looks like a small worm or leech. :-\ Either way, you're right, it's not as noticeable at first, but maybe rather than angle, the difference is that s/he starts hammering. Maybe it descends or shakes loose because of the jarring motion?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I don't know what it is... but would be wonderful to see it falling in one video 😃 maybe in the one after ACP000eft4 ....

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    I'm pretty sure you can see the "bump" move, albeit subtly, in ACP000eft2, It also appears to protrude like a stick or piece of grass when she turns her head. Both imply it is indeed some type of debris.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Yes, exactly. In ACP000eft2, :11 secs through the end... you can see what looks like a little tan piece of grass or straw sticking out away from the head next to the ear. I think it would be good to compare the other features at this point, to see if the rest of the evidence outweighs any doubts there may still be about the ear.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    wow girls, that it a good view! I have to admit that I am having troubles to see something moving, but I totally believe you. To me fits perfectly with Kamala 😉

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    ACP000eft1 Good eyes, people! Here it looks like the ridge is visible at the usual spot (horizontally and half way down the ear) in the very beginning of this clip between 0 and 1 second. Then as you guys note the white object seems to curve around the rim of the ear and elongate. Better seen in the video.

    Looks to me like it lies on top of the rim rather than intersecting it like the horizontal ridge below this area does.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    After pointing this out I tried to see it while Kamala is moving. You can actually see something white sticking out horizontally from the ear which moves together with the head around second one:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ohhhh totally!!!! amazing research work!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    So, any other concerns or support for a match on this one then?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I added her with Kamala in the chimp list 😉

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    From the identifiable chimp list:

    Three videos ACP000e94a, ACP000e94b and ACP000e94c of which I'm positive are showing Kamala at the left and Marlyn at the right (in the first video only). @Lauraklynn already noticed their names in the comments of ACP000e94a.

    We can shortly see their faces (Kamalas wide face with bushy brows) and from the backside view we see that the left one is a girl and the right one has some bare spots on his back like Marlyn has as well as the little knob/cut near his earlobe.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000fwcc ACP000fwce ACP000fwcf ACP000fwcg This juvenile looks like Kamala. Cut in right brow, right ear ridge bisecting the center of the rim, jutting lower jaw, same facial color pattern.

    enter image description here

    ACP000esem Kamala closeup

    enter image description here

    ACP000f6m7 Kamala side view again

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I agree @Snorticus.

    Great!!! thanks a lot

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I'm thinking the youngster in ACP000fon5 is also Kamala:

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I did not look for circumstantial proof, but that could be Kamala, indeed. General appearance, body size, and right ear look good to me and that mark in the right brow seems to be there, too. (Time stamp of the video is definitely wrong.)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I agree! great @lauraklynn

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    This juvenile together with Filou in ACP000ef4n looks like Kamala: round belly, a short look at her special muzzle and I think it's a girl.
    The one we can only hear up in the tree is probably Marlyn. 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Not so sure here. The unclassified next video ACP000ef4o shows also a juvenile that could be Kamala or Marlyn. I am having difficullties to say who is the boy and who the girl. My feeling is first Marlyn, then Kamala in the next video. But could be the other way around as well.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I think the juvenile in ACP000ef4n is a female, and could be Kamala, but I don't think that the other juvenile in ACP000ef4o is Marlyn. I am not sure about the gender, looks a female, but to me the body shape doesn't fit with Kamala or Marlyn. We have seen this juvenile with Filou before, in more videos where also Kamana and Marlyn are present but we never identified her/him...

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Sorry I completely forgot to have a look at the next video. I still think though that the first one is Kamala. Not sure about the juvenile in ACP000ef4o - it might be Marlyn from size and the short side view of the face looks more like Marlyn than Kamala, but if you think it's a girl then of course not 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000ef4n - Agree this is Kamala, brief glimpse at the end of her somewhat flattened muzzle shape. Also agree that the 2nd juvenile that enters in ACP000ef4o - is not Marlyn and looks to be a female.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks all!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    But what about the white spot on the back seen when the juv enters in ACP000ef4n and again at 11 sec.? You think that is an artifact? I am OK if you are sure. I was just looking at ACP000e94a for instance, were we can see who is the boy and who the girl, but I am not so sure that we could see this difference in the b/w footage. And there is a white spot on the back, I think, at a place Marlyn has it too.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    This is a tough one, but based on the "maple leaf" shaped pale rear of Marlyn in B&W, I would say the first chimp is definitely not Marlyn.

    Known Marlyn rear view - ACP000fw9m

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000fwfp - Another Marlyn backside view.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000gfnb - Here is a rear view of both Marlyn with his "maple leaf" pale shaped rear, and Kamala with her round shaped pale rear. Below are previews but easier to see the different shapes in the video.

    Marlyn -

    enter image description here

    Kamala -

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    very cool the "maple leaf"

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    To me there is not a bald spot in that back watching the video. In the still picture that you posted, is the scapula that, while walking, makes the fur looks lighter.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    OK, no problem. But who is the second small female juvenile then?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I am not sure, but I have the feeling that we have seen her before. There are more videos where Filou is seen with 3 juveniles (or more)

    For example here ACP000fqrv I think that the first juvenile could be Marlyn because it looks a male, and after Filou there are 2 juv females. The first could be Kamala, and the second coudl be the juvenile in ACP000ef4o. The body shape and the way of walk are very similar.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    You're right Paula, the walk is also similar with her thin bowlegs. I think I've also remember to have seen her in a color video. Will look for it later.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    But I think when we discuss videos like ACP000fqrv and ACP000ef4o, we should discuss the whole sequence. In both video sequences are more chimps present. That makes it a bit harder, I think.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    There is no context in the rest of both sequences that let me think that the girl belongs to any other chimp than Filou: In ACP000fqrx (not tagged) following ACP000fqrv she is looking back. But there is only a researcher following in about 50 meters distance. The only other chimp in that sequence is a male, but no female chimp. I doubt that there are more chimps behind the researcher, right? Nothing else is recorded on that specific day either.

    The same in ACP000ef4n ACP000ef4o (not yet tagged) ACP000ef4p and ACP000ef4q She looks back and is followed close by a researcher. The female carrying a young in p and q is walking in another direction and the girl walks on behind Filou also after seeing her. There's one other chimp in that sequence, a female. She looks quite young, subadult or so? I'm not sure who she could be, maybe Sabirah?

    enter image description here

    So much for the sequences.

    I think these videos also show the girl with the bowlegs:
    In ACP000eseq (this is the sequence where Kamala licks the camera with ACP000esem and ACP000eseo) so the girl following the others is certainly not Kamala. She follows Filou which is not yet confirmed/tagged:

    enter image description here

    In ACP000e8p4 there are also three juveniles and Filou not confirmed/tagged as well. The first is a boy, most likely Marlyn, the second one a girl. When she shortly turns we can see her special profile. The thisr juvenile that follows is also a girl with thin bowlegs and a thick belly. No good stills but quite well seen in the video. Now all we need is a face for that girl... 😕

    enter image description here
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    wow, what a deep research Heidi

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira

    Hi,

    I agree that in videos ACP000fqrv, ACP000ef4o, ACP000eseq and ACP000e8p4 is always the same girl with bowlegs 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    That's great!!

    we don't have a good view of her face, but she deserves a name 😉

    Joana, would you like to choose a name? It will be your welcome-present to the site

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira

    woww thanks a lot 😃 can be Bea, in honor of a special chimpanzee that I have met in a sanctuary in Spain.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    yes, we haven't used Bea yet 😉

    Where in Spain, in Mona? Tell them about "Bea", and about C&S! I am sure they will love to see chimps in freedom

    Thanks Joana

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000ggj2 - here she is too walking after the big female juvenile (Sabirah?). That would me Kamala is last.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The question is whether AVJuv16 is Bea too (ACP000fw9p). Looks a bit more bowlegged than Kamala to me.

    ACP000fw9n - is the Kamala tag here correct?

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira in response to PauDG's comment.

    Perfect! Yes, exactly, were you there as well? I already shared the word about Chimp&See but I will definitely tell them about Bea 😃 Thanks a lot!

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree with @AnLand might be Bea in ACP000fw9n, and definitely is Bea in ACP000ggj2.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I agree to with ACP000fw9n ACP000ggj2.

    Kamala tag in ACP000fw9n is not correct, I delete it 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ACP000fw9p is in the same sequence as ACP000fw9n where we see Bea, so AVJuv16 is Bea!!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Yes, that what I suggested. 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great!

    Posted