Chimp & See Talk

Community tools?

  • puddock by puddock

    I came across a sequence of videos of an adult using a stone to crack (I think) nuts, watched by a juvenile...video Image ACP000fwbu and onwards...when I went back through the sequence, the previous set of short videos showed the same spot and a chimp using the same stone to crack nuts but without an infant watching. Also, the two chimps have been identified by other people here as different chimps (I'm not experienced enough yet to distinguish individuals!)

    My question is, if they are different chimps, and the videos are shot on different days, and both chimps were using the same stone, does anyone know if this is common practice, for a particular tool being used by more than one individual? And, if so, does this suggest chance or community use, like going to a village wash house or bakery??

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Hi @puddock

    Yes! great observation!

    stones are very rare in the rainforest at this site and the stones are certainly commonly re-used.

    eg: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26741979_Tool-composite_reuse_in_wild_chimpanzees_Pan_troglodytes_Archaeologically_invisible_steps_in_the_technological_evolution_of_early_hominins

    This may also be of interest: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2007/02/chimpanzee-stone-age

    and: http://www.exploratorium.edu/tv/index.php?program=00000766&project=22

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  • puddock by puddock

    Thanks so much for that - fascinating! I love the idea that chimps were perhaps using tools before humans and that we might have learned the skill from them! 😃

    You say that stones are rare at this site - all the more remarkable that they have developed as tools then ...

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @puddock,

    You probably didn’t mean it like this, but it is a common misconception that chimpanzees are our ancestors. Humans and chimps share a common ancestor some 5-7 mill. years ago. Both species – as well as bonobos after the split from chimpanzees – developed from this ancestor in parallel. Each species adapting to its habitat and the challenges of its „lifestyle“, so to speak. It’s not that humans evolved further while chimps just stayed like this for millions of years.

    So, either the common ancestor (that wasn’t a chimp, but an ancient ape) already used tools, or both species developed this ability independently.

    Some other primates like e.g. capuchins (these are New World monkeys) and Japanese macaques are also known for tool use, as are e.g. some birds. Which means tool use might be an even older trait or developed several times during evolutionary history depending on circumstances (like: there are tasty nuts at Aged Violet and some stones to crack them).

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  • puddock by puddock

    You're quite right - I didn't mean that they were our ancestors, rather that the chimpanzee branch of the family tree might have been using tools before man had the idea of it, or at least, as you say, that we developed the idea in parallel. I love it when evidence comes along that we aren't at the top of the tree!

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to puddock's comment.

    I totally agree with your last sentence, @puddock ! For me, it's humbling and mind-opening... and, in a way, comforting, because it shows that we are part of something huge and amazing (nature, life) rather than confusingly separate from it. It's not just anthropomorphizing as some believe... we are actually seeing rudimentary human-like behaviors. Understanding them can possibly help us understand ourselves, beneath the pretense of our modern society.

    For example (if I may digress slightly), if you watched the awesome video that @MimiA linked above, you learned how chimps mentally map the locations of numerous stone hammers of different sizes throughout the forest so they know the closest ones to pick up to take to a certain tree. Do you know how long it took me to realize I could have cleaning supplies on both floors of my house so I didn't have to carry them all up and down the stairs? Plus, I still unsuccessfully try to use random household objects as hammers, and still misplace my keys. Now, who could learn from whom? 😛

    Anyway, welcome, @puddock and thanks for the good question! Keep watching, and you'll begin seeing differences between individuals very soon. It's a challenging but enjoyable process!

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  • puddock by puddock

    Thanks for your comments and welcome ksigler - I know just what you mean about keys and stuff...it's reading glasses with me 😃 I can't wait to find out more about these clever chimps as time goes on!

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  • Felpa by Felpa

    Caramba, what an interesting video you linked for us! Many thanks. I imagined something like that, but I couldn´t think they had on their mental map so many points of tools and paths between them. I laughed with the two floors; it happened to me too ...

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Two more interesting articles on chimp metal maps 😛

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8086000/8086246.stm

    http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/27/the-early-chimp-gets-the-fig/

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  • Felpa by Felpa

    Thanks for the links. I now understand much better the whole of what I've been watching these months. I also see how skilled are chimps; they are masters in the activities they have developed to live ...

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    If you have any questions or comments at all post! post! post! and we will do our best to discuss anything you are interested in 😃

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    So, I have a question. 😛 It's related to this thread, so I'll post it here.

    I'm fascinated by the topic of juveniles learning vs. mimicking vs. adapting when it comes to tool use, and today I ran across this old clip: ACP0002qj1 It shows a juvenile using a small rock as a hammer on a larger rock, as an anvil. (There doesn't appear to be any food being opened.) Then, an adult comes along and takes the "anvil," to presumably use as a hammer for the nuts she is also carrying.

    My question(s): do chimps learn "this is a hammer, and this is an anvil" and this juvenile is just doing it wrong/mimicking? Because we've seen much younger juveniles attempting to use much larger rocks than this "anvil" as hammers (see below). Or, is a good rock a good rock, making them potentially interchangeable based on preference and availability of better options?

    I guess a follow-up to this would be, it seems that at least some individuals must be doing calculations or tests to find the sweet spot between energy expenditure and effectiveness as they get older, no? We see some younger chimps that use their whole body to pile drive a heavy rock onto the nut. As they get older/stronger, it seems they begin to use smaller rocks that fit in one or two hands, so they can use their arm strength alone to crack the nut. Differences in nutshell hardness aside, do we know what else drives the decision to start using the big boy/big girl tools, and when?

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Hi @ksigler

    all great questions!

    I am pretty sure a rock can be used as a hammer or anvil although they are probably not 100% interchangeable, some anvils are probably terrible hammers and some hammers are terrible anvils

    regarding when chimps use tools or why, there is cultural conformity, the issue of weight/strength, distance one must travel, learned skill and more:

    but i am gonna see if i can get some experts to answer too 😃

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Dr Lydia Luncz, primate tool expert, wrote the following:

    "We do know that youngsters start out just mimicking the percussive
    behaviour. They often forget one of the three items that it takes for
    a successful nut cracking session (hammer, anvil and nut). You can see
    them using their fist or a twig to hit on an anvil and so on. With
    increased age, usually around 3 or 4 they understand that what it
    takes but mainly are lacking the muscle strength to open a nut
    successfully. At first they pick up small stones, as they can pick
    them up easier than wooden logs or large stones. With time and
    increased muscle strength they can now use any tool, it takes
    practice. We know that at some point they must integrate social cues
    into their tool selection as group differences are seen in all adult
    animals (age 13 or older). I am still working on the question when and
    how that exactly happens... I hope that helps a bit. 😃 "

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  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I got permission from the WCF to upload this video from the turn of the century 😉 that has a great sequence about chimp learning!

    the specific part about learning is here: https://youtu.be/sMeMlChwo-o?t=10m30s

    but i of course welcome you to watch the whole thing 😃

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    Great video! Thanks for sharing!

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  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    Wow, this is wonderfully fascinating to study, and to compare and contrast with the human experience. Thank you very much, @MimiA and Dr. Luncz!

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