Chimp & See Talk

Fianna--Match to Fem03

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Very robust female (I've already done more than one double-take thinking she was male) with a lot of balding. Older, but carries no infant. Grey lower back and very rounded lower back too. Swelling is very protruding and has a lot of very dark skin surrounding the pink.

    ACP000edpb (previews not so great, back color easier to see as she leaves to the left)

    enter image description here

    enter image description here
    ACP000ekje

    enter image description here

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    Fem03 ACP000fw71

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hello @jwidness!

    I agree with you, same color, same robust body, same big nostrils... and what d you think about AVFem03b? Even we thought she was a male at some point.

    We said "Left ear intact" and ACP000edpb has a cut, but it is also difficult to see in ACP000ekje, I guess because it is in the high part of the ear, so it is not that visible.

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    There has been a lot going on with proposals for AVFem03 but none seemed to be absolutely convincing. Thus several threads and all unsolved? see list next to ACP000fw71.

    Now I think I found her again in the "identifiable chimps list". I was hunting for matches to AVJuv02 and I am sure this little one here is a match.I'll post it elsewhere when I'll find the correct thread... puh...Already I'm quite convinced that it is not Marlyn but indeed the same as 02 and 02b confirmed by Nuria in the Baba and friends thread

    ok back to Fem03: Together with the juvenile in video ACP000e5iy we can see a bald female with grey back. She really looks like AVFem03 and the fact that she is close to AVJuv02 as in the initial videos of her convinced me. When you stop the video around sec 14 I think we can even spot the cut in the right ear. The fact, that she shows up again with AVJuv02 let me think that she actually could be his/her mother as already suspected in the description of AVFem03.

    AVFem03

    enter image description here

    Female not yet tagged in ACP000e5iy

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Sorry I forgot to mention that I totally agree on @jwidness' proposal that the above ladies are AVFem03 as well as Paula's suggestion which includes also AVFem03b in the match. She has the exact same browline (the right one a little higher) and the deformation in the right ear can be seen quite well.

    AVFem03b from ACP000emi2

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    hi @Boleyn , sorry for the delay...After my Christmas pause, I´m finally back to reallity 😃

    just trying to summarize our thoughts:

    ACP000edpb = ACP000ekje = ACP000fw71 (AVFem03) = ACP000e5iy = ACP000emi2 (AVFem03b) , right?

    I agree with you, and I feel that the others do as well...

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Welcome back @NuriaM I hope you had a wonderful time 😃

    Yes, thanks, I think that all of the mentioned videos are the same female.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Paula, may I come back to this as it probably slipped your attention? I think we all agree on this match you also suggested in this thread about females 03 and 03b

    So maybe we could close another case here? 😃 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi!

    Yes, I asked @PauDG for the status of this discussion(s) earlier this week, too. But she said that she is still unclear. Maybe also because I (or better @midnightsun) brought AVFem17 as another match addition in.

    I agree to: ACP000edpb = ACP000ekje = ACP000fw71 (AVFem03) = ACP000e5iy = ACP000emi2 (AVFem03b) – as stated by @NuriaM. Discussions here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001h1m and here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001m3z

    I also agree that she is seen with a small juvenile that is AVJuv02 / 02b / 03. This was suggested by @Boleyn and also as stated by @NuriaM: “Agreed: #AVJuv02 = #AVJuv02b = #AVJuv03b = ACP000e5iv ACP000e5iw ACP000e5ix ACP000e5iy 😃 ” Discussion here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001k4w

    About AVFem17 (discussion here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001mu5 ): If AVFem17 is a match too, we would expect the juvenile around. And we can assume this – at least kind of: in ACP000eqtu (from the spreadsheet) we have a confirmed video from Makena, just seven minutes earlier, so the same travel party (cut-off is 15 minutes as far as I know).
    This sequence, starting with ACP000eqtq / ACP000eqts includes two juveniles – the first arriving bigger than the second – and an adult male. Both juveniles here interact playfully with the male (Caruso?). I think the smaller juvenile might be AVJuv02 etc. – the juvenile we associate with AVFem03 etc. One could hypothesize that the party already traveled further while the female was still feeding. Her juvenile ran with the male; she is seen some minutes later.

    @PauDG also asked about ACP000fbr7 – an adult female with the same built, grayness on back and legs, and the fold in the right ear. Here we also have a second sequence in the spreadsheet (20 minutes later) with an older female juvenile that looks a lot like the older juvenile in ACP000eqtq / ACP000eqts (especially the right brow that is lighter and bulky, and the broad nostrils). So, again a connection. I would add her to the match. And the juvenile looks promising to me.

    ACP000eqtq / ACP000eqts

    enter image description here

    ACP000fbrt / ACP000fbrx

    enter image description here

    All a bit circumstantial, but my opinion.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks @AnLand for the great wrap-up.
    Although it sounds a bit circumstancial it makes perfect sense to me.

    The only correction or rather addition I have to make is the first link to the other threads you mentioned. This first link should most probably link to

    https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001c4n
    instead of ending with 1h1m which is actually this discussion here. Things like this happen to me all the time because I have so many windows open 😃

    The bigger of the two juveniles ACP000eqtq / ACP000eqts looks like a perfect match to the one in ACP000fbrt / ACP000fbrx. Same bushy curved brows, long muzzle, wide mouth and high-set nose. I've seen this one yesterday in the Recents and thought that I have seen it before but wasn't able to find it.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,
    i am having difficulties with these females....

    I agree they are very similar, but somehow I find her "baldness" different.

    Both are quite bald, but AVFem03 / 03b/ AVFem03c ( ACP000e5iy) / AVFem03d ( ACP000edpb) / AVFem03e ( ACP000ekje) is more bald (or has a marked line separating the baldness). And the juveniles are not seen with AVFem17 / ACP000fbr7, right? (correct me if I am wrong AnLand), they are seen in other videos from the same sequences, but actually we don't have the whole sequence (yet), so maybe there are more females in these sequences too.

    *edit: I gave a prospective name to all the females

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Would you agree if we do the match between AVFem03 / 03b/ AVFem03c ( ACP000e5iy) / AVFem03d ( ACP000edpb) / AVFem03e ( ACP000ekje) and we still talking about if AVFem17 is also her or not?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I only discussed a bit here, but I would agree to accept part of the match and take it with AVFem17 from there.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Totally ok with me 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great! Now... who proposed the first match between AVFem03-03b?. I think it was a teamwork. Do we ask a new user?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    The very first I think came from @jwidness. But I'm certainly also ok with asking a new user as a little motivational treat 😄

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    good, thanks

    Posted

  • squish5 by squish5

    Thanks very much Paula, I would like to go with Fianna (Fee ana) Irish mythology name for warriors (male and female) led by Fionn mac Cumhaill. She looks strong so hope it would suit her.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Wonderful name! many thanks @squish5 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Finally that amazone got a nice, fitting name! love it!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Oh, I already loved this name when you first suggested it at the leopard board and it is so fitting for this strong (well, at least robust) female chimp. Welcome Fianna! It took us a while to name you. 😃

    Posted

  • puddock by puddock

    Great name!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I would like to propose AVFem17, AVFem17b and AVFem18 all as a match to Fianna.

    Both 17 females are described with a cut a/o deformation in their right ear. We can't see the right ear in AVFem18 but all three are very massive and have the same big swelling with dark skinned protuberance. All have a dark face, bald forehead and very slightly bent brows over the root of the nose. None of them carries a small infant. From Fianna we know that she is somethimes seen with Shugi, her offspring but sometimes also alone.

    AVFem17 ACP000eqy1

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    AVFem17b ACP000fbr7

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    AVFem18 ACP000fc25

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    Fianna:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I agree that AVFem18 and 17b are a match as both have also a deformed left ear. Fianna's left ear is fine and she is also grayer that the other female. Fem18 and 17b are quite dark without a gray back or legs. That's at least my opinion at the moment.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    @AnLand, do you mean that AVFem18 and 17b have a deformed right ear? I haven't seen the damage in the left one. Fianna's left ear is intact

    @ Boleyn , I agree too that Fem17 and Fem18 could be the same, but I do not know if they are Fianna. I also find Fianna's back grayer than the others, but I like the idea and I am happy to discuss more. Let's see what happens with the ears.

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    The grayness is mostly a matter of the different light. If you look at Fianna in this video ACP000edpb you can see, that she is not more gray than Fem17, 17b and 18:

    enter image description here

    where as Fem17 appears to be quite gray in this pic.

    enter image description here

    As for the left ear: I can't see any deformation in the left ears of either of the three females. 17's ear is not seen at all, 17b and 18 are quite dark and we can only see the upper part (the conch) which seems to be bent forward just like Fianna's (same video as above).

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    While looking for some good pics of Caruso I stumbled over this video with another female which has no ID yet. I think this could also be Fianna: She's reacting to some screams so we can suppose that she has an offspring. When playing the video very slowly we get a good look at her right ear and can see the deformation in the earconch quite well. Built, swelling, baldness, brows everything quite like Fianna - and very close to look at. At least I don't think that we have another lady around with such features and a dark swelling protuberance?

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    No, I meant really the left ear. The right ear is deformed as with Fianna, but additionally Fem18 and 17b also have a deformation at the left ear, I think. And she is darker than Fianna.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @AnLand would you mind to post some pics from the left ear deformation? I'm still not able to see much more than there IS a ear. As for the color I really think the light is playing tricks on us. This or some of the confirmed Fianna videos are NOT Fianna, because sometimes she looks very dark too - as in the video posted above...

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I do not get clear images, but I think that she has a small cut or deformation in the upper part of the left ear. The same one that @PauDG mentioned for ACP000edpb here in this thread (page 1, comment from November 7, 2016). Also, while reading again though the whole discussion - the match proposal (Fem17 and 17b) has already been discussed here (without Fem18) and the statement was that the balding is different - I need to think again. I am not sure whether it all fits together, also with the juveniles we would expect or the ones actually see. Sorry, I need a bit more time.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    As one of the arguments here is the protruded swelling that we did not see in anyone else, I want to show these two videos that I've just seen (one is untagged) with two females with a protruded swelling and without an obvious offspring in ACP000eb98 and ACP000eb99

    ACP000eb98 shows a darker and slightly leaner female with baldness (I cannot see anything from the ears). Video is better.

    enter image description here

    ACP000eb99 shows a more robust, also not particularly gray female, some baldness, ears seem to be OK, most prominent perhaps the grayish beard.

    enter image description here

    This is not a match proposal to anyone, just to sort our thoughts, because the protruded swelling plays an important part here in the discussion.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    The lady keeps to be difficult 😕

    I can't see the cut in the left ear in ACP000edpb but when you and Paula see it do we then have to rethink if this really is Fianna or if she's rather the other females (17 and 18)? She's not particularly grey but there is a juvenile on the other side of the tree - not sure if it's Shugi thoug...

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I am sorry, but now I do not see the cut either. I know I said she had a cut, but I do not see it anymore 😕 I am going to check my notes.

    Heidi, can you please add the video name of the female you said could also be Fianna? (the one with Caruso)

    So, the doubts are:

    • are Fem17 and Fem17b the same?
    • are they a match with Fem18?
    • are they (or any) a match with Fianna?
    • it's AVFem03d actually Fianna?
    • it is the female in ACP000fwaz seen with Caruso, Fianna / Fem17 Fem18?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Ha! good questions, Paula! 😕

    Here's the video no. for the female with no ID seen with Caruso: ACP000fwaz Sorry, I forgot it once more...

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks! (and no worries) 😄

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    Maybe the adult in video ACP000f05l is Fianna? But I also think that she could be AVFem17 - here in this discussion: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001mu5. I will post there too because I am not sure. There is this ear damage on the right and it's a robust chimp, but I think female, because of the kids. There are two juveniles: a big one with a considerable balding and a little one that looks a bit funny (sorry).

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Good guess @midnightsun I would agree to Fianna. The massive built, the clear damage to her right ear and that she's not carrying an infant let me think so.

    The first big juvenile seems to be Eleanor and the smaller, funny looking one is probably Shugi, Fianna's offspring. I think he's looking funny because of the quite dark video. 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I have my general problems with Fianna & Co., but there is definitely something on the them with that new video from @midnightsun. It's the same ear problem, robust body size, some grayness and beard ...

    But I do not see Eleanor here. Eleanor's left ear is damaged in the upper part and this juvenile seems to have a complete ear. Also, the scar on her forehead is missing. The other juveniles that I remember are not that bald, though.

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    I also read that Eleanor has a damaged left ear. The juvenile is really bald, but the ear looks good to me (both ears).

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    The juvenile indeed doesn't seem to be Eleanor, doesn't have the cut in the left ear, neither the scar.

    I agree that this female ( ACP000f05l) is very similar to Fianna. But also to AVFem17.

    Time ago we talked about the possibility of AVFem17 being Fianna, but we didn't close the match. Let's see if it's clearer now 😉

    We are talking about the same match in https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001mu5 but let's try to continue here.

    I have doubts. To me Fianna is missing a bigger part of the ear and looks more bald than AVFem17. And I find the female in ACP000f05l (added as AVFem17c), more similar to AVFem17, but I do not rule out that the 3 are the same.

    What are your opinions about Fianna = AVFem17 = AVFem17b ??

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    oops where has my comment about Eleanor got to? I thought I posted it 3 days ago...

    However I agreed that it cannot be Eleanor but I don't know what other bigger juvenile it could be. We have seen no other with a balding like this. Also the smaller juvenile, the strange looking one, might be a new one because Shugi looks quite "normal" and has bent brows and is not as pudgy and hairy as this little guy here with obviuously quite straight brows.

    And although I still think that the female might be Fianna it also crossed my mind that we might have another family here, we have never seen before. Or we have only seen the female but not the juveniles. What do you think?

    bald juvenile, not Eleanor but also not Jojo-Crann:

    enter image description here

    and the funny looking smaller one:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    You wrote it in the other thread https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001mu5 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    We are not sure if this is only a female with 2 juveniles or if there is an other female behind the camera.

    Juveniles are always difficult, but I also don't recognize those ones 😕

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    AVJuv14 (a female juvenile) is quite bald with undamaged ears ACP000fky8

    Discussion here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001q34

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    But in ACP000fky7 - this juvenile (AVJuv14) looks more like Sabirah, I think.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    oh gee, thanks Paula. Do I need some more holidays? 😃

    @AnLand you're right, AVJuv14 looks more like Sabirah although in the videos she looks as bold (edit: bald - I doubt she's bold 😃) as this new juvenile here. I always had the impression that Sabirah is not really bald, it looks more as if she had thin hair. But the brows and the big nostrils of AVJuv14 do not fit with the new juvenile. A bit confusing.... most of the Sabirah videos are in the shadow. But when we look at her in a b/w video she might actually be quite bald and we just did not see it as clearly: ACP000fcks

    So totally off the record and not really belonging in this thread but I would support the match between Sabirah and AVJuv14.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I agree, the baldness from AVJuv14 and the big juvenile in ACP000f05l are very similar, (and I like the proposal, I didn't think about the prospective juveniles!) but I have doubts about them (or at least ACP000f05l) being Sabirah.

    Sabirah has a notch in the right ear, that I don't see in ACP000f05l and her nostrils are wider.

    Sabirah

    one
    one

    ACP000f05l

    one

    AVJuv14

    one
    one

    I agree with the proposal AVJuv14 - ACP000f05l, but think they are not Sabirah

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira

    I can´t be certain either about the match between AVJuv14 and Sabirah..

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks Joana.

    And what do you think about Juv14 and the first juvenile in ACP000f05l? Anja proposed the match and I agreed.

    Posted

  • JoanaPereira by JoanaPereira

    Ahh I definitely agree with that match 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    That's great, we have another identified chimp!

    Joana, would you choose a name for her? Many thanks

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I do not agree that we can rule out Sabirah. Specifically for ACP000f05l. AVJuv14 I could agree to rule out Sabirah, because this is one of the earliest videos from this site and we later never see Sabirah with that swelling, but for ACP000f05l I could not rule out Sabirah.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Just for support that I would be careful to assign a separate identity. I find nothing that clearly rules out Sabirah, but there are some clear similarities. I don't claim a match, but I disagree with a unique identity apart from Sabirah. Compare also body size and the swelling in profile.

    ACP000f05l

    enter image description here

    Sabirah in ACP000e5p5: half profile and ear in similar camera perspective

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    ACP000f02j - same camera as ACP000f05l - with a confirmed Sabirah identity, shows how bald she looks from the perspective and strange light. (Much better in video seen) and in ACP000f3os she looks also very bald.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000fytv - also a bald big juvenile with the same brows and nostrils. Ears look OK. Brows exclude Jojo-Crann, undamaged ears exclude Eleanor. Also not Ussuri in my opinion.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I think that Sabirah and ACP000f05l have different ears, and I think that Sabirah is bigger.

    Is there something specific that makes you disagree with the match between ACP000fky8 | ACP000f05l ?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ACP000fytv : the video is too blurry

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    I don't disagree with the match (I mean, I proposed it), but I think that there is a high probability that it is all Sabirah. At least, I cannot see any differences - also not in the ears or size - between these young females.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Then I don't know what to do.

    We all agree with the match ACP000fky8 | ACP000f05l, but not with the match ACP000fky8 | ACP000f05l | Sabirah. And no problem if we don't agree, we leave it separated as we do normally.

    But I think that we should somehow make clear that ACP000fky8 | ACP000f05l are the same.

    Ideas?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    We encountered this problem already before (without a solution) - how can we indicate a match when we do not want to name as, e.g., at Dry Lake, we only match back views and cannot exclude a match to known chimp with only a front view. Or in the same line of thinking: does a temp ID exclude any match to known chimps or not. So, I don't have a solution, but I would prefer this path, especially as we have for instance a sequence ( ACP000f6g3 / ACP000f6g4 / ACP000f6g5 ) that we matched to Sabirah because the intact ears excluded Eleanor. If we have now a third adolescent female that would be difficult.

    (And I still think that this is Sabirah. All traits fit.)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks Anja for the comments.

    It doesn't seem that we are going to have an agreement, so I think the best will be to leave them all separated. The names will be

    Posted