Chimp & See Talk

Does anyone recognize this chimp?

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I have found this chimp and I think we could recognize him/her. I am not sure if it´s a she or he, but it´s a gorgeous adult, completely black face, robust body build and a U-cut on the top of right ear (left ear looks intact). I have checked our known/prospective list but I can´t find a clear match. Still I am not very familiar to Aged Violet, can anyone help me here?
    ACP000f3om and ACP000f3oo

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    I am thinking of AVFem03b ( ACP000emi2 )...white beard, right ear cut, dark face, forehead baldness looks similar; what do you think?

    one one

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Also, the right brow slight curve makes me think of Filou :

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I think that is definitely Filou because of the ear damage that is highly consistent with him. As I still think that AVFem03b is indeed a female, I would not think that this can be a bigger match. But I will look into her later.

    enter image description here

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Looks like Filou to me too. Also just at the end of video ACP000f3oo and in the next clip ACP000f3oq in this sequence we can see Kamala, one of the two juveniles which are together with Filou.

    From ACP000f3oq the one on the left.

    enter image description here

    Marlyn, the other juvenile who is together with Filou comes in yet a later video

    enter image description here

    The female in front of Marly might be Eleanor. She's moving quite fast therefore bad still, sorry.

    enter image description here

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1

    Comparing the photos above, I would say that is is not Filou. The head shape is closer to AVFem03b. It is rounder, the hair seems fuzzier - standing up a bit and thinner. Also the ears seem to be a bit higher on the head than Filou. Face may be slightly more narrow as well.

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to zoogirl1's comment.

    Hm, I disagree somewhat, @zoogirl1, for once, I think the new individual here is much more massive than the female (AVFem03b). Second, you can see also the left damaged ear at 14 seconds in ACP000f3om. Also this damage (the small cut and strangely flattened upper ear) is consistent with Filou. AVFem03b on the other hand has a normal (undamaged) left ear. What do you think?

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to AnLand's comment.

    Could I have these pics backwards? Very top is the unknown (AVFem03b), 4th down is Filou and the one you posted is AVFem03b, yes? If I have it correctly, then AVFem03b has a very damaged right ear and a good left (based on prospective listing) while Filou has damage to both ears. see ACP000efp9 for right ear on Filou. and ACP000fw9x or many others for left ear. Maybe I'm seeing things.

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to AnLand's comment.

    ACP000efp9

    ACP000efp9

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to AnLand's comment.

    ACP000fwx9

    ACP000fwx9

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to AnLand's comment.

    maybe not AVFem03b either but not Filou

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thank you for the input,

    I tend to believe that this new guy is Filou. Looking at the right ear cut, I see that our new chimp´s is not only a cut, but also a kind of deformation, like Filou´s. Also, it´s located on the side towards the top of the ear; however, AVFem03b´s cut is placed a bit more at the top.

    @Boleyn´s arguments make sense to me too...

    @zoogirl, look at the new guys´s and Filou´s bald patch on their foreheads; don´t you think that they quite match? 😃

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @NuriaM I think there's a little mistake in the tagging of these 2 videos:

    Of the known three juveniles I mentionned above I think the two videos ACP000f3oo and ACP000f3oq only contain Kamala, but not Eleanor and Marlyn. The second juvenile in these clips next to Kamala is not Marlyn. I don't think this is a known one.

    The ones I think are Eleanor and Marlyn show up in the next video ACP000f3os of this sequence. And sorry, my bad, I forgot to enter the correct video number in my post above!

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to NuriaM's comment.

    They are very similar but the ears are the thing. You said new guy seemed to have one good ear. AVFem03b also has one good ear. The focus seems to be on one ear of Filou but both of his are deformed or injured as shown previously. I'm confused.

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    @Boleyn, thanks for the correction...I still don´t feel very confident with this site :S

    @zoogirl1, I think the new guy´s left ear looks intact, but s/he walks quite fast and I can´t tell for sure. It could be too that there is a cut...or not. What I mean is that this trait alone is not decisive. But the right ear damage is far clearer 😃

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    No worries, @NuriaM, I'm just getting used to AV myself - it took me 5 months 😄

    I think this left ear is not intact. It's not as damaged as the right one but has it's deformations as well. He's got also the same small whitish bald spot on the right side of the head/forehead as Filou (to be seen in the close-up shot of his ear above).

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Ok. I believe the clip you started this discussion with, the new guy, is Filou. Based on the ear. AVFem03b has a slightly different shaped head and I believe her ears are higher up. The other video clips look like her. Can't get a good look at both her ears but Filou has 2 deformed ones.

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to zoogirl1's comment.

    Thanks @zoogirl1!!

    that´s great news, so we have a new match at Aged Violet 😃

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all!

    I agree that this guy is Filou 😉

    @Boleyn, the picture from the chimp you think is Eleanor, is from which video? I don't find it. Because I think that Elanor could be the one on the left in ACP000f3oo...

    Thanks!

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Paula, I thought it's her in ACP000f3os the one walking towards the camera with Marlyn trailing behind her. But after a closer look I can't see her scar on the right side of the head. So it's probably another juvenile with the same traits and of the same age as her. Or the scar is not consistent?

    enter image description here

    the confirmed Eleanor.

    enter image description here

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks @Boleyn

    mmm I think that Eleanor is the one on the left in ACP000f3oo and that one from ACP000f3os could be Sabirah. Looks bigger than Eleanor, don't you think?

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Ok, I caught this juvenile from ACP000f3os in a better still image:

    enter image description here

    and this is the best I could find of Sabirah:

    enter image description here

    The brows are too straigth to be Sabirah's I think. How about Crann, he's got quite straigth brows, the bald spot on the forehead and big ears.Or do you consider her a female?

    Crann:

    enter image description here

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  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1 in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I agree that the juvenile from ACP000f3os is not Sabirah. Brow is a unibrow and hers is very defined into two. As for Crann, so hard to tell in day vs. night. Certainly very similar. Mouth is small, brows straight but Crann's face seems a bit more open around the eyes. Could be shadowing from the different light.

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  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hmmm...I have my doubts about the juv. in ACP000f3os being Sabirah as well. If we reject the possibility of Eleanor being present in both videos ( ACP000f3oo and ACP000f3os ), I think the juv. in ACP000f3os goes more in the Crann direction than in Sabirah´s 😕

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  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Could the 3rd and 4th in line from ACP000f3os be juveniles Y (#AVjuv11) & X (#AVjuv10) from this discussion? https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001il2

    I see a strong resemblance with Y/juv11 and the 3rd in line.

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi @auraklynn.

    I think you are right, those are AVJuv11 and AVJuv10. And I think that:

    • AVJuv11 is Sabirah, and
    • AVJuv10 could be Marlyn (I am not 100% sure about Marlyn, but could be).

    What do you think?

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Sorry Paula, I don't want to be the killjoy here but I really do not think that AVJuv11 is Sabirah. It's possible that AVJuv11 and the juvenile Y are the same chimp as suggested by @lauraklynn but I doubt that it is Sabirah. I was never convinced of the match between the original Sabirah and AVfem11 and AVjuv07b exactly because of the shape of their brows.

    AVJuv11's brows are quite straight and Sabirah's brows are bent (at least in the original videos of her). Pls. see my comparison at the begining of this page. @NuriaM also has her doubts about that match (above).

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  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    @Boleyn: Juv Y and AVjuv11 are the same individual. I assume it's really AVjuv11 and the 3rd individual in ACP000f3os that you are suggesting might also be the same.

    I too don't see a strong similarity between Sabirah and AVJuv11 or the ACP000f3os individual. As others suggested, this could be Crann, but I'm not 100% convinced. Crann's brow seems somehow shallower and with softer edges, though it could be the lighting.

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Hi!

    which videos do you mean are the original videos from Sabirah, ACP000exqm ... ?

    In my opinion there are 2 juveniles that fit with that body shape, Sabirah and Jojo-Crann. As Makena is not around in that sequence, and the face (including the big nostrils) reminds me a lot to Sabirah, that is why I made that proposal.

    Who do you think AVJuv11 could be? Do you think could be a match with AVfem11 and AVjuv07b, but not with Sabirah / AVjuv07?

    Thanks!

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Paula, yes the original Sabirah videos I was talking about is the log series with ACP000exqm etc.

    I'll have to look more into it to answer the second question. I'll come back, promised 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am not sure why this juvenile can only Sabirah or Crann. It can also be a new juvenile, or? We have the two big girls (Eleanor and Sabirah) and - in my opinion - also at least two big boys. They are both seen here in ACP000gnpv. One might be Crann, but I could not say. One first one seems to be a bit smaller than the second, but that's all I can say.

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    OK, I found out what my problem with recognizing Sabirah was.

    This video here ACP000expz with still shot 8 is used as an identifying image of Sabirah in the "Known & prospective AV Chimps". It is the only video that provides a face-on shot of the chimp sitting on the log. But this chimp is not Sabirah. It's another youngster, I think female but not sure about that. When s/he sits down we get a good view at her right ear. There's no damage! The video shows that there are actually two chimps but because we have so many videos with always the same girl sitting so patiently on the log we automatically assumed that it was Sabirah. But when you compare the size of the two juveniles you can easily see that Sabirah is bigger than the other one.

    Not Sabirah:

    enter image description here

    The real Sabirah is this chimp here ACP000expy, which provides only a view of little more than half of her the face. However we can see the little cut in her ear and that her brows are much straighter than those of the juvenile in ACP000expz

    Sabirah:

    enter image description here

    In view of these new facts I think I can agree on the matches between Sabirah, AVJuv07, AVJuv11 and AVFem11. 😃

    And we can look out for another juvenile to match ACP000expz.

    S/he has still a dark mask, protruding, nicely bent brows with a dark gap in between. Bright muzzle with white beard. A perfectly shaped right ear. No or only very little baldnoss on the forehead.

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    oh you are right!!!!! sorry

    I have removed the still image from ACP000expz and deleted the hashtag

    In ACP000expy Sabirah is leaving and then in ACP000expz we can see this other female, smaller than Sabirah, and an other one.

    She has a small scar/mark in her right eyebrow. Could be Kamala, and the 3rd one could be Marlyn (but just because is going with Sabirah and Kamala :p )

    Thanks a lot @Boleyn

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Nuria agrees with the matches between AVJuv11-Sabirah, and AVJuv10-Marlyn.

    See her comment here https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001il2

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Yes, I thought of Kamala as well because of the scarred brow.

    I'm also on board with AVJuv10 beeing Marlyn. Sabirah is clear now as mentioned above.

    Great, two puzzles solved! 😉

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Great!

    @lauraklynn and @AnLand were doubting about Sabirah too. Let's see if they agree now 😃

    Thanks @Boleyn

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  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I am still not certain, but now that the one still has been eliminated as not Sabirah, I am more convinced.

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    thanks!

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  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, I agree with AVJuv11 (ACP000fttq) is Sabirah. AVJuv10 should be Marlyn. I could go with that too.

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    great!!! thanks a lot 😉

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