Chimp & See Talk

Kamala, which one?

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Was looking through Kamala's tag group and saw this one included but I don't see any discussion about it. Which one is Kamala and has this been confirmed?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    All youngsters seem to be male, so I don't think that anybody can be Kamala and I doubt anything is here confirmed. I will move the discussion to AV-15 to let @PauDG decide.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all there is not any chimp confirmed yet in this video. (I will ask mkavooss to remove the "#" )

    I agree with AnLand, I do not see Kamala here, the last 2 juveniles seem to be males. The last chimp could be AVJuv06, but I am not sure at all, juveniles are so complicated 😕

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I agree to the similarity of the last - a bit bigger - male juvenile to AVJuv06. I am also not 100% sure, but facial traits, body size and the left ear fit.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Juveniles!!! so complicated

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    hmmm...I'm not sure about AVJuv06 either. Maybe it would be easier to match him if we could find out who the females in this video are?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I have no idea about the first one. The second could be Desta (because the patches in the back and the size of the juvenile), but I am not sure at all.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Here's the backside of the second female in the clip:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    And this is Desta. The lower part looks quite similar but the upper part looks different, at least at this angle:

    enter image description here

    The juvenile: If you zoom in on still no. 8 you can see that he has some bushy, parted eyebrows. Could be Azize

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Having done that I realized that in the previous video ACP000e734 there's another infant walking behind the first female. It's too small to be a juvenile so it must belong to the second female - which completely rules out Desta and Azize. So we have in fact two females with infants and one with a male juvenile. I'll look into it later.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    That is the one I thought could be Azize, but it is true that in the previous video looks smaller

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    The swelling of the first female looks quite like Taiga's given the sligthly different perspective, there's also that brighter colored knob at the top. The infant seems to be a girl as Taiga's and has the same size:

    enter image description here

    confirmed Taiga ACP000esic with her girl:
    enter image description here

    The juvenile associated with her is a bit difficult to determine. It says AVJuv15 in the list. In this video ACP000esic we see that it is most likely a boy but he's not tagged yet. However in the list you ask for a name for AVJuv15 but the video ACP000ez9y of this AVJuv15 shows a female juvenile I think.

    Maybe you could look into this issue again, Paula?

    The juvenile here in ACP000e735 does look like a boy though and the size is about the same as in ACP000ef7i.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    The second female might be Sekai, but this is a mere assumption. She's got an infant at about the same size and no juvenile following her. But so far we have no image from her backside.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hm, to be honest, I see here neither Taiga nor Sekai (although, I do not know much about Sekai).

    For the female walking first, I think the swelling does not perfectly match Tiaga's as it is more formed like a lean "8", Taiga's is more compact. I also think the infant she is carrying is male and it is considerably bigger than Taiga's infant from the video two days later that you linked. Compare the big feet and length of the limbs.

    I don't know Sekai well, but I assume that she has an infant approx. the size of Taiga's and the walking infant is also bigger than that. Do we know about her infant's sex?

    About who accompanies Taiga when (so, further offsprings), we had recently a brief discussion here: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001o1r that is still open.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks @AnLand I haven't seen that discussion yet.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    Bolyen, which chimp do you refer in ACP000esic? AVjuv15 is not there, right?

    now I do not feel confident about ACP000f3h3...

    Makes sense that in ACP000ez9y we said that is AVjuv15, and she seems a female, but she goes too fast to have good images

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Paula
    sorry, ACP000esic was the wrong video, I meant ACP000ef7i where Taiga is confirmed waiting on a juvenile which is most likely a boy.

    ACP000ef7i
    enter image description here

    ACP000f3h3 and ACP000f3h6 looks more like a girl, right?

    And ACP000ez9v is Taiga followed by the girl in ACP000ez9y. My conclusion would be that the lady in

    ACP000ef7d and ACP000ef7f and ACP000ef7i is NOT Taiga since this one is followed by the boy.
    By the way, that female I was referring to for the comparison of the the swellings on page 1 beeing the same female as in ACP000e735 . So if this in 7d, f and i is not Taiga, it would make a lot of sense! 😃

    puahhh... am I still clear?? pls. ask if not.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi Boleyn,

    You are right, the juvenile in ACP000ef7i looks like a male, so doesn't match Taigas juvenile. And I agree with you that the female is not Taiga. She is not well visible, and the juvenile doesn't match. If you remember we had a small confusion with Taiga and Willa some months ago, so this could come from that confusion. I am going to remove the Taiga's hashtag in the video ACP000ef7i.

    So, if we agree that in ACP000ef7i is not Taiga, do we have any other proposal pending in this thread?

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Paula, no, no other proposals open.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    good!! Thanks Heidi 😉

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I do not really understand the reasoning here. Taiga was matched based on facial traits and with her infant. This included in several videos also her swelling. Only later we did see her in one video ACP000ez9v with a following juvenile (in ACP000ez9y). The other videos from AVJuv15 are - in my opinion - purely circumstantial. We did see the female juvenile not in earlier Taiga videos - at least we did not recognize any such connection. So, because we did see her (definitely her) in one single video based on her traits and followed by a juvenile, we now delete matchings because we do not see the juvenile? Is that association with the juvenile really that clear? And can we really exclude that the juvenile is not around in videos where we did not see her in the first place?

    I mean, maybe we did a mistake in matching, but I also find the proof against a bit sketchy.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    It is not because of the juvenile (or not only), it is because I do not think with the view we have in the video ACP000ef7i is enough to make any match. And I do not see any special feature that support the match with Taiga.

    But if you see something, please go ahead and give us your ideas.

    Here https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001ins we talked about the swelling, and how the swelling from the female in ACP000ef7i was the same as the 3rd female in ACP000gnpq, that after was discussed here https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001ngd where you said you didn't think is Taiga (and we agreed), and we didn't not know who was she.

    I just think it is not clear, so we should undo the match. But of course we can discuss more about the females swellings.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    We did match Taiga and her swelling first with ACP000esic and ACP000ef7d on page 2 of this discussion: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000s/discussions/DCP0001ins mostly based on the infant.. Collage is from Nuria.

    enter image description here

    We added later ACP000emjk also based on swelling and infant. Wrong clip came later and is definitely a different female and she is carrying a male infant.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I don't know how and whether we want to proceed here, but as said before the matching based on the swelling affects some more videos, so we would need to delete the Taiga hashtag in all of them and start over. (See my posting before this.)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I think only that video ( ACP000ef7i ) was matched based on the swelling (even if Nuria doubted because she found the infant different).

    The video ACP000esic, was matched based on the infant ("I think - only based on the infant - that we see the same female in ACP000esic, too. The infant has a lot of fluffy hair, very uneven brows, and big nostrils. Body size is consistent. Here we can also see that it is a girl." link), and in the video sequence of ACP000emjk, both (mom and infant) are well seen.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hm, I do not really understand what you are saying. We identified her based on other traits and then compared the swellings. What is problematic with this? We did this before, I think, as well. I am fine with any decision, but I still do not see any dissimilarities.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    You said that the matches were done based on the swelling and that we should re-check them, but the matches were done base in other things, as the infant, faces, .....

    I do see differences, and Boleyn does. I have added the female from ACP000ef7d as AVFem19 as we do not agree on who she is.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi all,

    sorry for gossiping here, but I once participated in this discussion about Taiga´s swelling, infant, etc. and wanted to add something about Paula´s decision:

    I think that whenever we have a controversial video where there is no concensus, even thought we all suspect that certain individual could be matched, we should remain conservative and treat that video separately, and add some specific annotations about our suspicions.

    If this video is so doubtful, I think you Paula did the correct thing by giving her a temporary ID.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I will try to prepare next week a post with pictures of the swellings that may help with the females (I wanted to post it before, but no time 😕 )

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    But why is this specific video doubtful? In all "swelling videos" that we matched to Taiga, AVJuv15 (a female) is not seen. And you agreed to the matches, Nuria. What makes you doubt now? Once she is seen only with her infant and Lya ( ACP000esic ), once with her infant and a big male juvenile ( ACP000ef7i etc.), and once with her infant and with a small male(?) juvenile ( ACP000emjk ) that is than challenging a bigger male juvenile (in ACP000emjl ). I think we need to discuss all of them (and review whether Taiga is really always followed by a small female juvenile). They might be different females, but with matching swellings and a small carried infant, the mismatch might be bigger than one single video. This is my argument and I feel strongly this is neglected.

    enter image description here

    If we want to go for just family association, ACP000efcl has the same constellation (the quirky little infant and a big juvenile, probably male) a few days later. Body build of female and visible traits agree.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    For bigger male juveniles, we have Ussuri (I don't think, it's him as he is smaller), Jojo-Crann who is associated with Makena (who also has a baby girl, but is leaner and has a very small roundish swelling), and the one walking before Jojo-Crann in ACP000gnpt / ACP000gnpv. For the females with infants in this sequence, none has a fitting swelling and - in my opinion - all infants carried around are considerably bigger. (There is one barely seen with a ventral infant, though, in ACP000gno3.)

    enter image description here

    I am not sure what we expect of a big male juvenile (young adolescent), but I think he does not follows his mother always, as this would - probably - be the case for the small juvenile that is AVJuv15. My argument is not really about Taiga, but about the female(s) with a same swelling and a small infant on her back.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hello AnLand. My doubt about that particular video is the swelling doesn't look super especial or super identifiable, the face is not visible, the infant looks different, and the juvenile going with them is a male, while in other videos we see a female (it is true that not in all the videos we see a juvenile following her, but could be just behind the camera, or a bit far).

    But even if we forget about the juvenile, I am not convince about the match with Taiga. I do not think that we see enough of her, and the infant looks different.

    Are we sure that Taiga is the only female carrying an infant with that size? I think there were some sequences where many females carrying infants were passing, and seen from the back. Let's try to compare AVFem19 with them.

    These are the videos I am talking about :

    ACP000gnpq
    ACP000gnpr
    ACP000gnpt
    ACP000gnpv)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Actually I think that the juvenile in ACP000efcl is a bit bigger than AVJuv18...

    But any way, the family composition fits with the new video ( AVFem19 & family) but also with Makena & family.

    We don't know who is Ussuri's mother, right? mmmm

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Anja, I didn´t say that I´m doubting now, I just said that if there are people doubting this video should be rejected.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    I already talked about those videos in my posting from last Friday and did not change my opinion since then. 😉 See my posting above or just copied in here:

    For bigger male juveniles, we have Ussuri (I don't think, it's him as he is smaller), Jojo-Crann who is associated with Makena (who also has a baby girl, but is leaner and has a very small roundish swelling), and the one walking before Jojo-Crann in ACP000gnpt / ACP000gnpv. For the females with infants in this sequence, none has a fitting swelling and - in my opinion - all infants carried around are considerably bigger. (There is one barely seen with a ventral infant, though, in ACP000gno3.)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I read it.

    Ok, then it is still unclear. We do not know who are AVFem19 and Juv18

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Thank you, Paula. Are you already working on a posting that compares the swellings? If not, I could help with that tomorrow or on Friday.

    By the way, while comparing the swellings in the long "marching scene", I've seen that you assigned for ACP000gno2 for the first visible chimp "male". I cannot really see the sex, but I am pretty sure that there is a ventral infant, and it's not too small anymore. So, there are two badly visible females with ventral infants in that scene - ACP000gno2 and ACP000gno3 - and one with that really big ventral infant in ACP000gno2 who has a totally different swelling.

    EDIT: as she is first parting to the left into the foliage in ACP000gno2 and then a female with a ventral infant in ACP000gno3 joing the march again from that direction, it might be the same female. Which would decrease the count again to two.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ah right, looks like is carrying something at the belly, not clear though. I think is the same in ACP000gno2 and ACP000gno3

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I didn't have time yet to prepare the swellings post sorry 😕

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    That isn't a problem, but you want to do it yourself, right?

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I have tried here but I didn't find good images for all of them 😕

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000fqmw is another video where I see the same swelling, the small infant (first female carrying young) and a male juvenile as the combination we had in ACP000ef7d (AVFem19 etc.). I think the infant is female. There is a second female with an equally small infant (I think male) and a different swelling (roundish, more small wrinkles).

    First female:

    enter image description here

    Male juvenile:

    enter image description here

    Second female

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Paula, you asked about females with small infants and I found some more videos that maybe can help to get a better picture. It's not a matching proposal, just some thought about females with small infants. Everything discussed in that posting is in August 2014. Our current thinking is that Taiga does not have a dorsal infant that early, right? If she is the one with a newborn in July 2014, she must be a different individual.

    In addition to ACP000fqmw, we see the same combination (with the same individuals, I think) in ACP000fnp2: two females with small dorsal infants (just a day apart from ACP000fqmw!) and a male juvenile.

    The first one - who's swelling we discuss here - is also walking first

    enter image description here

    Then the male juvenile

    enter image description here

    Then another female with a young infant (male, I think)

    enter image description here

    Also in the same month, we see in ACP000fno1 the other female with the roundish swelling and male infant

    enter image description here

    And - even better - we can exclude that she is Makena (who also has an infant with the same size, but female), because she is in the same sequence, already identified in ACP000fno3.

    enter image description here

    Maybe that helps a bit with sorting them out. No face views, though.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks Anja!

    I think you are right, and the females from ACP000fqmw and ACP000fnp2 could be the same... but who?!

    Makena for sure not, her back is gray. Desta also not, because Azize is bigger. Neither Fianna because we haven't seen her carrying an infant.. Lya doesn't have offspring for what we know ( (as Fem17 and Fem18), and Taiga is also discarded because of the "new" born and the other juv female.

    Then they could be:

    • Etta
    • Sekai
    • Raj
    • AVFem18
    • other/new

    For what we know until now, only AVFem18 is seen with an other offspring apart of the infant she carries, but I am not 100% sure that the others don't have more offspring too.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This might not be the perfect place to post this, but I think, it relates mostly to this discussion. I'm going a bit bold here, but having discussed Taiga's swelling and that I find it similar to the one of AVFem19, but the family context is different, I bet that the female in ACP000g1tg is Taiga with an (invisible) ventral infant, followed by her older daughter. Not much seen and not worth posting screenshots, but that is the same swelling, I think.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Invisible ventral infant, LOL!

    I also find the swelling very similar (like with a horizontal wrinkle) and the family composition fits, if it is true that there is a baby. Could be the baby that small that we do not see the hands?

    Posted