Chimp & See Talk

Petra: 2 Adult females- 1 with infant

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Video ACP000dtmg

    Here we have 2 adult females, the one on the right has an infant:

    Here is the best look we get of the face of the female on the left. We can see a swelling in the video confirming she is a she:

    Here is a look at the face of the female on the right:

    And here, we get a look at the infant. I am not sure, but I think you hear the infant vocalize at the end of the clip:

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    thanks @lauraklynn !! beautiful ladies 😃

    the one that vocalizes at the end of the video is the lady on the left ( #GSFem03 😃 ). Look at her at sec. 14, when she sits again with her left arm up.

    And the lady + infant on the right are now #GSFem02 + #GSInf02

    Thanks!!!!

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    ACP000dowc

    It could be someone else, but this appears to be GSFem03 at the same site at an earlier time (you can see the tree is more intact here):

    Here is a head on view:

    Both ears appear undamaged. It could be the angle, but her brow appears almost slanted from this view, with the left (her left) side slightly higher than the right.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    This same video popped up for classification and I agree with @lauraklynn that this is GSFem03

    On her rigt brow she has a notch that kind of separates the end of the brow.

    It's best seen in this still:

    enter image description here

    And what looks like the same cut in the brow of GSFem03. It's better seen in the video around seconds 2-3 when she shortly bows her head.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Another video I had to classify was ACP000dtru

    There's not much seen much but what I see reminds me of GSFem02. Not enough for a match but I just wanted to "store" it somewhere 😃

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    The chimp in ACP000dkxv also seems to have the same reclining brow ridge (slanted to the left) as GSFem03. The screenshot is not the best, but in the video it's well seen. The big ears and baldness agree as well.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This female in ACP000dtiu / ACP000dt25 / ACP000dss0 seems to have the same max swelling. The tree is always the same, but the situations seem to differ. (But I am not sure: the swelling is grayer in the upper part, where there is a straight horizontal line. The lower part seems to vary - due to cycle stage?)

    ACP000dtiu

    enter image description here

    ACP000dt25

    enter image description here

    ACP000dss0

    enter image description here

    There is half a face view in ACP000dss0 - baldness, almost straight brows, ears OK, I think.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    She might also be in ACP000dsy3

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    (We probably need to check with GSFem03 - also at this tree and also without an offspring - not that she is the same.)

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    That swelling seemed rather distinctive to me too. She looks very robust.

    ACP000dss2 - Here's another face view.

    enter image description here

    ACP000dtjb - And this looks like her swelling shape, color and robust body shape, undamaged left ear too.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    For clarity - a list of full series (in each series she has been classified & tagged in at least one clip) from this discussion so far:

    ACP000dtiu ACP000dtiv ACP000dtix ACP000dtiz

    ACP000dt1y ACP000dt21 ACP000dt24 ACP000dt25

    ACP000dsrz ACP000dss0 ACP000dss1 ACP000dss2

    ACP000dsy2 ACP000dsy3 ACP000dsy4 ACP000dsy5

    ACP000dtj2 ACP000dtj5 ACP000dtj8 ACP000dtjb

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    As AnLand noted here are no time stamps, but since the gnawed groove changes shape I would say same chimp - different days.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Great! I agree that ACP000dowc is GSFem03 , thanks @Lauraklynn 😃

    @AnLand, I think you are right about ACP000dkxv , she has this distinctive right brow too, everyone agrees?

    @Boleyn, as for ACP000dtru , I know there´s not much of this chimp seen, but I think too that we have GSFem02 here: I see GSFem02´s funny small round eyes in this chimp, let´s keep this video in mind 😃

    So @lauraklynn you are the first official matcher of GS !! do you want to give us a name for ACP000dowc (and very likely ACP000dkxv) and GSFem03?

    Posted

  • Orohena by Orohena

    Great match @lauraklynn !

    I agree with @AnLand, to me the right brow is the same as GSFem03.

    And I agree with @Boleyn, not much to see but look like GSFem02 !

    Great job everyone !

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Yes, I agree that we have the same female here. Besides, I would encourage you guys to take GSFem03 into account: in ACP000dss0 we see her with a chimp that I´m prety sure is GSFem02 + GSInf02.

    What do you think? Do you think they all could be GSFem03 (like @AnLand suggested above)?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Orohena's comment.

    wonderful!! thanks @Orohena 😃

    so we need a name for ACP000dowc , ACP000dkxv and #GSFem03 Laura? 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I think I like the name Petra for her. 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I think it could well be GSFem03. The slant of the face looks the same, as does the prominent cheek bone, as well as the features already discussed in https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP0001w3h

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    I love Petra!! thanks Laura 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    thanks @lauraklynn 😃

    @AnLand, @Snorticus, do you think that these ladies (thank you Snorticus for the list):

    ACP000dtiu ACP000dtiv ACP000dtix ACP000dtiz

    ACP000dt1y ACP000dt21 ACP000dt24 ACP000dt25

    ACP000dsrz ACP000dss0 ACP000dss1 ACP000dss2

    ACP000dsy2 ACP000dsy3 ACP000dsy4 ACP000dsy5

    ACP000dtj2 ACP000dtj5 ACP000dtj8 ACP000dtjb

    could be #GSFem03, now #Petra?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Bonus: what about the one that accompanies her in ACP000dt1y ACP000dt21 ACP000dt24 ACP000dt25 / ACP000dsrz ACP000dss0 ACP000dss1 , do you think she could be GSFem02 (+ inf)?

    Her eyes look like those of GSFem02: she has this distinctive triangular big baldspot on her forehead and big eyelids, which makes her eyes look quite round, sort of "mangabey-like" eyes 😕

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    The face (brow and forehead especially) are very similar. I'd say they are a match to GSFem02 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thanks @lauraklynn,

    so do I have green light to tag Petra and to claim a match of her fellow in ACP000dt1y ACP000dt21 ACP000dt24 ACP000dt25 / ACP000dsrz ACP000dss0 ACP000dss1 to #GSFem02 + #GSInf02?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Fine with me, unless you want to wait for another opinion 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Thanks Laura 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I would love to read some more opinions about GSFem02 and the lady with Petra. I am pretty sure (and Laura supprts it 😃 ) that we are talking about the same female.

    left: #GSFem02 ACP000dtmg , center ACP000dt1y , right ACP000dss0

    enter image description here

    what do you guys think?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    More of Petra:

    ACP000dkxb
    ACP000dkxe

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Petra again: ACP000dtev

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Thanks Laura!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    What do you guys think about #GSFem02? I am pretty sure that we see her with Petra in all these videos: (Laura agrees 😃 )

    ACP000dtru 15.11.2012 12:26 GSFem02? (but here without Petra).

    ACP000dtt7 23.11.2012 06:50 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj2 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj5 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj8 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtjb 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt1y 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt21 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt24 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt25 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtmg 25.11.2012 13:30 #GSFem02 + Petra

    ACP000dss0 25.11.2012 13:54 #GSFem02 + Petra

    ACP000dss1 25.11.2012 13:54 #GSFem02 + Petra

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    And another Petra, bipedal this time:

    ACP000doxz

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    LOL! what a funny facial expression 😄

    thanks Laura.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dmi6 and ACP000dkyk as well Petra?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I agree. Both are Petra.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Yesss 😃

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    I think I found GSFem02 and infant again in ACP000dl57 (sorry, this might not be the right discussion).

    The face is a bit more brown from certain perspectives, she has a small infant, is bald, and the face is narrow.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    Yes, I also think that it's her in ACP000dtmg, ACP000dt1y, ACP000dss0 (from the pictures NuriaM posted before here).

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.

    thanks @midnightsun , I agree with you, I think that the female in ACP000dl57 is CSFem02. Same face traits and infants fit too:

    left: ACP000dl57 / right #CSFem02 in ACP000dtmg :

    enter image description here

    what do you think about these other videos? I strongly believe that we have CSFem02 there too, but I would love to know your opinion:

    ACP000dtru 15.11.2012 12:26 GSFem02? (without Petra).

    ACP000dtt7 23.11.2012 06:50 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj2 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj5 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtj8 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dtjb 23.11.2012 06:51 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt1y 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt21 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt24 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    ACP000dt25 23.11.2012 07:55 GSFem02? + Petra

    AND: ACP000dl57 😃

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    I've just seen this in classification: ACP000dsry - is this on the edit: left the same female as #GSFem02? Nothing is seen from her baby, though.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.

    Hmmm...do you mean the ind. sitting on the right? I can´t see much of her/him!

    But I will give the guy on the left a temID anyway 😃

    #GSUNCLEAR04 ,

    any more thoughts? thanks!

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Oh, I meant the one on the left! I classified this chimp as a female adult and an infant (four chimps altogether), because I thought it is #GSFem02 and infant. Sorry for this!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.

    no worries, I am happy to meet someone who can confuse right and left...it happens to me constantly!!

    thanks again for your finding 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    anyway, I am not sure about #GSUNCLEAR04 being #GSFem02...their faces look quite different to me, even GSFem02 looks more robust. I would also expect to find an infant near 😕

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    More assorted clips of #Petra:

    ACP000dl1u
    ACP000dmi5
    ACP000dn1f

    ACP000dsvo
    ACP000dta8
    ACP000dtt5

    ACP000dr91
    ACP000dthi
    ACP000dowd

    ACP000dl55

    These all showed up in recent comments or I discovered them while classifying. No URL hacking to see if she is in the rest of each series, as I know we are trying to minimize that.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Thanks Laura,

    I have tagged the videos that belong to the Petra´s sequences. Although I agree with the other videos containing Petra too, I would like to read more opinions about them:

    ACP000dl1u : enter image description here

    ACP000dmi5 : enter image description here

    ACP000dn1f : enter image description here

    ACP000dr91 (sitting on the ground, on the left) : enter image description here

    ACP000dl55 : enter image description here

    What do you guys think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hey guys, checking the chimp list I am pretty sure I found Petra again. Just wanted to ask you what you think:

    ACP000dt6s

    ACP000dt6u

    ACP000dsrs

    ACP000dsxh

    ACP000dto9

    ACP000dtpl

    ACP000dtdv

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Nuria, I agree with all your proposals.

    In ACP000dt6s I think we see a max swelling?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Here is the list of videos from my continuing Petra collection. I tried to check for duplicates elsewhere in this discussion, but may have missed a few:

    ACP000dko1

    ACP000dkqi

    ACP000dkrb

    ACP000dksw

    ACP000dkt0

    ACP000dkt5

    ACP000dkt6

    ACP000dkvo

    ACP000dkzi

    ACP000dl1f

    ACP000dn2a

    ACP000dnb3

    ACP000dovu

    ACP000dsc9 (and possibly Gaia in back?)

    ACP000dstn

    ACP000dsv6

    ACP000dsv8

    ACP000dt6t

    ACP000dt89

    ACP000dtcn

    ACP000dtde

    ACP000dtfy

    ACP000dtod

    ACP000dtt2

    I'm pretty sure they are all her, but of course they need to be double-checked.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Wow Laura, amazing!

    I agree with them all, and would even add Siena and infant in:

    ACP000dt89 and ACP000dtod

    I´m not that sure about Gaia in ACP000dsc9 , any more thoughts?

    I have tagged them because I am sure we have Petra in all of them, but if someone has some doubt, I will be open to discuss about it 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    In ACP000dsc9 I somehow miss the very blond/white hair of Gaia. So I think rather not.... But we have a very good face view of the infant. Maybe this helps in some way now or later.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks @Boleyn ,

    Infants are hard to match, but I see a slight difference between this one and Gaia´s:

    infant in ACP000dsc9 , straight brows:

    enter image description here

    and Gaia´s infant in ACP000d9kx , curved brows:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Here's another Petra video for the collection 😃 ACP000dtex confirmed in ACP000dtev

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Danke schön 😃

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    This is maybe Petra. ACP000dkx8

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.

    She is Petra 😃

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Such a cool video ACP000dr5u found by @Corcaroli. Could it be Petra again? Either she's pregnant or she eat a lot of wood? 😃

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Hmmm...could be. I think I see her distinctive right brow. It´s a really cool video 😄

    more thoughts?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Looks as if we have more of Petra here: ACP000dt7l

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Hi @Boleyn - Commenting on ACP000dr5u - See ACP000dr5y which is later in this series and I think this chimp may be a fine looking fellow who is scratching his penis? 😉

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I'm not sure about the scratching, but ACP000dr5u doesn't quite look like Petra to me. The face is somehow off. Perhaps too round? And the mouth and ears don't protrude enough. At least that's the impression I get.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    I am also not sure what is being scratched, but the chimp in ACP000dr5u looks like Cassini, not Petra,

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks,

    In ACP000dr5u I think we could exclude Petra for the moment, and think of the possibility of Cassini. Anja, what makes you think that s/he could be Cassini? I can´t see much of his/her face and we get no view of the right hand, which would be definitive to decide if it´s Cassini or not. But the left sides of their faces seem to fit: coloration, round left ear, thin brows:

    left: Cassini in ACP000dsqb , right ACP000dr5u :

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Oh I see, I was a bit confused because Petra and Cassini do look a bit alike, escpecially from the side, but she seems to be a bit more bony with more protruding brows. I was probably also thinking about Petra because she's been seen bipedal for one full minute and this sitting position here reminded me of it.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    @Boleyn, what do you think about Cassini? the more I see both pics, the more convinced I am that the guy in ACP000dr5u could be Cassini, even though we don´t see his right hand.

    @Snorticus, @lauraklynn?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Yep, I'm convinced: it is Cassini.

    Maybe this still is even a bit more convincing (from a clip later in this minute). We see his protruding, round upper lip and the deepset eyes.

    enter image description here

    compared to confirmed Cassini:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    That is pretty convincing. The sort of sort of bulbous upper lip.and bony cheeks are distinctive to me.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    you are the best!

    thanks ladies 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dkvp - another in a Petra series.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    tagged 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dnb5 - another part of a Petra series, ID-ed in ACP000dnb3

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    great!

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    @AnLand suggested it might be Petra in front in ACP000dr91 and I agree. Also in ACP000dr92

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    yes, thanks

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dsru - Petra here, confirmed in - ACP000dsrs

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dtpp - Petra here, confirmed in - ACP000dtpl

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    great 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000drsc - ACP000drse -more of Petra

    ACP000dsuq - ACP000dsus

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    yessss...and Siena with her 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    More of Petra:

    ACP000dkp7

    ACP000dkud

    ACP000dkue

    ACP000dl5j I think I see Petra and Siena behind the log

    ACP000dmvo agree with @AnLand

    ACP000dmvs

    ACP000dmyt

    ACP000dn3l @AnLand and I concur

    ACP000dn5m

    ACP000dsrr

    ACP000dssj

    ACP000dsz1 @Boleyn suggested Petra and I agree

    ACP000dt03 & ACP000dto4 Petra with Yakini?

    ACP000dt0y Petra with Eliot

    ACP000dt7p

    ACP000dt8b

    ACP000dtdo Petra & Siena

    ACP000dter

    ACP000dtg1

    ACP000dthr Petra & Siena

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Our BFFs: ACP000dtkf and ACP000dtkk
    and Petra alone in ACP000doqk

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Petra? ACP000dkok - ACP000dkop

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra needs confirmation here ACP000dt6x here ACP000dt6y and here ACP000dkw3

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Awesome! thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Very much in the back but looks like Petra: ACP000dsnp Laura agreed 😃

    And more here in ACP000dt3f and ACP000dt3h in this one Anja agreed.

    One more ACP000dtpc of which I think is Petra in front and probably Siena in the back.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Agree on Siena (and of course Petra 😃 )

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dnjb - @Corcaroli found this, brief look but is this Petra? Dark fur, ears stick out, prominent brow, robust body.

    enter image description here

    ACP000dotn - Petra?

    enter image description here

    @Batfan - found Petra again - ACP000dl37 and in @Orohena found her in - ACP000dl39 - if you confirm, @NuriaM

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ACP000dnjb : her brows (specially her right one) do look like Petra´s , but she walks too fast. This one is a typical "unclear case" to me 😦

    ACP000dotn , ACP000dl37 / ACP000dl39 : Oh yes! these are typical "Petra cases" 😄

    thank you Dawna!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Here's some more of Petra I think: ACP000dt9t and ACP000dt9x

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra in ACP000dtsv found by @charly03 and @therrim

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Yeah!!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @Corcaroli found video ACP000dt7z and asks if it's Petra? He found also ACP000dt85 of the same series two months ago. Although we can't see her face I think it's her. The swelling looks like Petras'.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Looks like Petra in ACP000dkrk and ACP000dkrq and here in ACP000dstv and ACP000dstw together with Siena.
    More of Petra found by @charly03 in ACP000dti7

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    The ever present Petra in ACP000dtcu ACP000dtcv and ACP000dtcw Not very well seen but still quite typical I think.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thanks Heidi!

    ACP000dt7z : Petra (see ACP000dt7x ).

    ACP000dt85 : Petra

    ACP000dkrk and ACP000dkrq : yesss

    ACP000dstv and ACP000dstw : Petra and Siena

    ACP000dti7 : Petra

    ACP000dtcu ACP000dtcv and ACP000dtcw : Petra

    😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    More of Petra in ACP000dm7a and ACP000dm7b

    and in ACP000dkvv ACP000dkvw ACP000dkvy as well.

    Sometimes I have the impression half of that tree went through Petras's stomach 😛

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    There's a post by @puddock which shows an interesting behaviour. I think it's also Petra we're talking about in ACP000dsnl and ACP000dsnm

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    More of Petra in ACP000dsvc (swelling) ACP000dsve (face) ACP000dsvh Nuria you made a note about this beeing possibly Petra and I'm sure it's her. She's here confirmed 4 minutes later and it's clearly her face and swelling.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra in ACP000dsrh suggested by @Snorticus and I'll support that.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Two other Petra series which need confirmation:

    ACP000dksq ACP000dksr ACP000dkss and

    ACP000dkuv ACP000dkuw ACP000dkux

    Posted

  • hoothoot by hoothoot

    More Petra, I think

    ACP000dtep

    Same tree, quite robust, whitish beard, similar swelling.

    But what's up with her gnawing at the tree ?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hey welcome back, @hoothoot !

    Almost all the animals are eating the tree here at Greensnowflake. It is decaying wood, see discussion here

    More Petra in ACP000dten and ACP000dteo

    We're waiting for Nuria to be back and confirm it. 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Looks like Petra and Siena and infant in ACP000dt4f

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Here I am!

    all confirmed...thanks !!

    @hoothoot , I´m very happy to see you around again 😃

    I wish we can finally get to see Petra with an infant 😦

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Petra has such a prominent swelling you'd think she'd be a very 'target rich' chimp for the males 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Yes I hope she's pregnant by now. We've seen her first in Ovtober 2012 until August 2013, e.g. here ACP000dm2g

    She looks as if she were pregnant or is this belly from all the wood eating?

    Petra also in this clip: ACP000dtcg together with Siena and infant (not seen)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Petra and Siena, BFF (best female friends 😉 )

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dsw9 - far right looks like Petra. Can't see hands but I think the male on far left has Eliot facial traits. Not sure who the female with infant is behind the tree, maybe someone else can tell? If you agree, full series has been classified:

    ACP000dsw5 - ACP000dsw7 - ACP000dsw8 - ACP000dsw9

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    yes to Petra and Eliot 😃

    As for the female + inf., I was thinking of Jemila and her infant, but I can´t see Jemila´s infant white spot on the head 😕

    Posted

  • Batfan by Batfan

    Could this be another Petra clip? - the swelling looks very similar to other clips I've seen ID'd as Petra. ACP000dt14.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Batfan's comment.

    Absolutely!! good eye!

    what do you think about the other one? I would go for Eliot (missing index?) although as far as I know, Eliot hasn´t been seen with Petra yet 😕

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Nuria, I went through many of the Jemila/infant videos and the white spot is actually mostly not seen, perhaps because it's on the upper head more towards the back. It's also possible that it is not consistent. What IS consistent are the infants huge white/pinkish ears and the bright brows and upper lip. I would also agree on Jemila behind the tree because I can see her white, protruding brows and small face:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @yshish just found this clip ACP000dtjr with Petra at the left side. You, Nuria, supposed Petra too in ACP000dtjt

    The other chimp hidden by the tree is most likely Katie and the juvenile in front could be Noel. These videos are taken on the same morning as all three have been identified, earler as well as later.

    Posted

  • yshish by yshish moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Oh, thanks @Boleyn , I don't feel confident enough about chimp IDs to suggest any 😃 Happy you did that for me.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Great, thanks!!

    ACP000dtjr / ACP000dtjt : I agree on Katie (see hand in ACP000dtjd , 19 min. later). The juvenile confuses me a bit. Not sure about Noel, to me Noel looks a bit bigger and his face looks darker.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra in ACP000dt9b ACP000dt9c and ACP000dt9d

    Although we don't get a good look at her face the swelling is clearly Petras'. She's been here 15 minutes earlier as well.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks Heidi,

    I wonder if we will ever get to see this tree finally falling down 😕

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    uhm....but we do, daily, it's the fallen tree we so often see. Some months ago Anja mentioned that in a discussion. Compare the trees in the back, they are identical:

    Tree standing ACP000dtch
    Tree fallen ACP000dsjc

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    oh yeah, I didn´t remember...

    it would have been even cooler if we had seen the moment when the tree falls down. But there is still hope: Gaia´s tree ACP000d9ea 😠

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    There's also hope for this tree since we still find videos from both times: tree standing and tree fallen 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Nuria, I just found a video ACP000dsqb from December 3rd, 2012 and the tree has a big hole now. Then I went hunting in the spreadsheet for dates close to that. Next is December 8th ACP000dr8h and bamm - tree is down! 😄

    That's the closest we got so far to the actual date the tree has fallen.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    cool!! it means that the tree has fallen down at some point between December 3rd, 2012 and December 8th, 2012 😃

    I guess we will get to see that moment, as it must have triggered the camera, I can´t wait!!

    I wonder, what made the angle change?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Oh good, @Boleyn has narrowed the time! I've been looking forward to seeing this footage. I will never find this thread about the tree again. Can we separate it so we can find it again? 😉

    Posted

  • yshish by yshish moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    There is a 'follow' button for each discussion (top of the page, on the right) - when you click on it, you can easily find the discussion anytime later 😉 just go to the Following page (first button in the top menu anywhere on the Talk).

    Posted

  • Batfan by Batfan

    Could this be another Petra cip? ACP000dssh. The horizontal line in her swelling looks similar to other clips of her.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Batfan's comment.

    Yes, this looks like Petra! And as it is part of a known sequence (cf. ACP000dssg), I'm going to tag. The other chimp behind the tree is Katie. Thanks for posting!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Batfan's comment.

    yes, Petra and Katie. Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Nuria, would you please confirm the screaming Petra here ACP000drlt Thanks! 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes, that´s Petra. Same swelling, back coloration, body build. She has been with Katie before in that series. Thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    @Snorticus do you mean to separate the comments about the tree in this Petra discussion here or are you talking about another discussion about the tree you can't find anymore?

    Actually I'm not sure if it would be possible to extract some comments of an ongoing thread so I'm opening up a new thread about the tree to keep track of the possibly recorded event, ok?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanks Heidi, that helps 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Looks like a full untagged sequence now found of Petra:

    ACP000dtoq ACP000dtor ACP000dtos ACP000dtot

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    thanks! this series is very long, Petra stays at that tree like one hour long!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    ...she's such a glutton 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I relate so much to her 😄

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    LOL don't tell me - I can't keep my hands off all the Easter chocolate eggs... 😛

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    More of Petra in ACP000dsbn and ACP000dsbp
    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

    She's really lovin' that wood pulp! 😄

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanks !!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dhfu - ACP000dhfv - Petra? with her glossy black hair, big ears, big pink swelling?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Agreed; face traits fit (her "sceptical" look) and her swelling, perfectly round and defined, black back, also context, no infants around.

    Thanks!!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra is confirmed in ACP000dnb3 and ACP000dnb5 and Xenia in ACP000dn2p and ACP000dn2r and ACP000dn2s.

    I think it's safe to say that the second unidentified chimp in the first two is Xenia. We can see only a little of her face but it's the same balding. And in the last three the other chimp is Petra. Black back and swelling are seen. What do you think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I believe it too. It makes sense to me, thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra needs confirmation in ACP000dn5f and ACP000dn5h

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    confirmed 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I've seen today that Petra is confirmed in ACP000dhfu and I'm irritated as her swelling usually looks different to me, even if it is max.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dsw5 - ACP000dsw7 - ACP000dsw8 - ACP000dsw9 - I am not sure here about Jemila. Why do you think that it is not Vala? (I am not sure either, but would rather vote for Vala, but maybe you have a specific reason for Jemila? You wrote in here description that Jemila might be Vala. Is that still a discussion?)

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    ACP000dq16 - This is also Petra, I think her face is pretty clear. Compare the appearance of her swelling later in this sequence - ACP000dq1a to the view in ACP000dhfu. Her fur is very black like Petra, do you feel the face is not a match in ACP000dhfv? She is kind of far from the camera.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Anja, do you think she ( ACP000dhfu ) could be one of our prospectives? All the known females have infants, apart from Sal (but she lacks her right hand) and Kalypso (but she is too young).

    I´m still quite confident about Petra in ACP000dhfu , besides, I´m not that sure if that´s a max. swelling 😕

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    ACP000dsw5 - ACP000dsw7 - ACP000dsw8 - ACP000dsw9 :

    in this thread, page 12, Heidi wrote about ACP000dsw5:

    Nuria, I went through many of the Jemila/infant videos and the white spot is actually mostly not seen, perhaps because it's on the upper head more towards the back. It's also possible that it is not consistent. What IS consistent are the infants huge white/pinkish ears and the bright brows and upper lip. I would also agree on Jemila behind the tree because I can see her white, protruding brows and small face.

    I found this argument very convincing, and accepted Jemila. But we can discuss about Vala instead, if you are not sure...actually, unlike Jemila, Vala is very often seen with Eliot.

    I don´t think that Jemila and Vala are the same female: I see different facial traits, e.g. Jemila´s muzzle is quite square, while Vala´s looks rounder and shorter to me. Also, their brows look different: Jemila´s are more angular/sharper than Vala´s:

    left Jemila in ACP000ds1o , right Vala in ACP000dnbo :

    enter image description here

    what do you guys think? :

    1. is the female with Eliot and Petra in ACP000dsw5 (...) Jemila or Vala?

    2. do you guys think that Vala and Jemila could be the same female?

    My thoughts are: 1. Jemila, 2. No

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    No, I don't think that Vala and Jemila are the same chimp. They are different chimps with different traits. I just don't see for ACP000dsw5 - ACP000dsw7 - ACP000dsw8 - ACP000dsw9 that this is clearly Jemila and not rather Vala and would like to discuss this. Traits are consistent with Vala and she is here around that day and I rather see her in this sequence, not Jemila.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Well, I am not sure whether at this camera - where we've seen on at least two occasions another chimp group (habituated, followed by researchers) - it should be our only argument who else she could be. We actually don't know whether this group is mainly / often here.

    There are other chimps, like this female in ACP000dgp4 (she is female, not male, with a small swelling and no testicles). She is clearly not Sal as well, also not Katie or Petra. Or this female adolescent, who is not Petra as well.

    I am just not convinced that she is Petra as the swelling (that is not at maximum tumescence, I believe) looks different and I can't see enough of her face.

    I also think that Kalypso should belong to the Vivie / Hasina-Yvette group. The individuals feeding on the two different "feeding wood" trees don't overlap at the moment. If I divide the videos in the correct way, it seems that this other group as considerably more young females. (But that's just speculation.)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    So Anja, what you mean is:

    • ACP000dhfu / ACP000dhfv : not Petra; the female´s swelling looks different than Petra´s to you.
    • ACP000dsw5 : not Jemila but Vala.
    • Vala and Jemila are two different females.

    right?

    what do you guys think?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    About ACP000dsw5 - ACP000dsw7 - ACP000dsw8 - ACP000dsw9 :

    Sorry guys, my bad. I was not thorough enough when looking at those videos I think. We get quite a clear look at the female in question in ACP000dsw5 right at the beginning. When first looking at her I thought the brows were too straight to be Vala's but we all know that movement in videos can be tricky. In hindsight I must say she looks more like Vala than Jemila. The context makes sense as well. Vala's infant has about the same size as Jemila's and I didn't think about it enough. So yes, I agree, she is Vala.

    enter image description here

    Re Petra's swelling in ACP000dq16 compared to ACP000dhfu doesn't look to different, and I think the face in the next video shows quite clearly Petra.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thank you!!

    ok, so I accept Vala in ACP000dsw5 (...) and keep Petra in ACP000dhfu (unless someone still wanted to discuss about it ).

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, I still having problems seeing Petra here and we should discuss this. Compare also with a similar body position in ACP000dkt8.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    What do you guys think about Petra´s face in ACP000dhfv ?

    left Petra in ACP000dl1e , right Petra (questioned) in ACP000dhfv :

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    I can see both arguments for & against ACP000dhfu - ACP000dhfv - as Petra. Looking through her tag group I don't find her there in deep forest shade so maybe the lighting difference & distance is confusing the issue. Petra may be more robust, but the head shape and ear characteristics look like Petra to me. You are the final arbiter of chimp IDs @NuriaM so really it's up to you to decide how to classify this female.

    I do worry about the camera positions known to film the other group of chimps and causing confusion. We haven't seen a lot of clips from this camera so far have we?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    all right, thank you Dawna.

    Here´s what I´ll do: as there´s is no clear agreement about this female´s ID, I am giving her a temporary ID (GSFem33) and keep an annotation about the possibility of her being Petra. Hopefully we will soon see things clearer...

    Thanks ladies!!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dtkh - ACP000dtkk - Is this part of a sequence where we see Siena's infant? If so should the count be marked as #3_chimp?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Actually, if you only see Siena and Petra you should write only 2_chimp, even though you know that the infant is present too (but not seen). You can always write a comment about the unseen chimp 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thank you for clarification on that, Nuria 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Petra needs confirmation in ACP000ds7e (arriving) then 2 minutes later in ACP000drjs ACP000drju ACP000drjv and ACP000drjw another 3 minutes later leaving in ACP000dsab. Thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    confirmed, thanks!!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Look at this great find by @tina_pixie_ ACP000dszi ACP000dszj ACP000dszk ACP000dszl (full series)

    #Petra #Siena (arriving) #carrying_young IDed in ACP000dszk & ACP000dszl So we know it is Sienna in the brush in ACP000dszi ACP000dszj

    Could someone else have a look at this series? Is it Petra chasing Eliot away from the tree so that Petra & Sienna can take over the wood eating tree? Quite dramatic!

    Can't find it, but remember when Eliot (mistakenly named Will when found on that clip) ran in vocalizing & whacked this tree while Petra was feeding at it while bipedal? Was that clip dated before or after this one?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    I believe this is Eliot being chased by Petra in ACP000dszi (stop at sec.06 and you´ll see Petra´s face more clearly).

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    I found it:

    ACP000dss2 , commented in https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP0002dj0 page 2 and dated on the 25-Nov-2012, two days after

    ACP000dszi ACP000dszj ACP000dszk ACP000dszl (dated on the 23-Nov-2012)

    Posted

  • tina_pixie_ by tina_pixie_

    Haha, so he is not allowed anywhere near that tree after the 23rd 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to tina_pixie_'s comment.

    LOL! yes, they are probably taking turns...they should be queuing instead 😄

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dhfu - ACP000dhfv - Reviewing these two - I agree with Petra as GSFem33. I think the lighting & distance threw me off.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    haha! thank you, I think there are tree votes for her:

    Heidi´s, yours and mine, right?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yes I'm still in on it. In the meantime I checked this particular place for group A chimps and we have confirmed videos with Bohr, Yakini and Cassini at this place: ACP000dhi7 and ACP000dh64 and ACP000dhkr. Night videos, but definitely the same surroundings.

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here ACP000dm67

    I read that the swelling caused some doubts, because it used to look like a smiley. So here is Petras swelling from the 08.08.2013, only 20 days before the other videos. In my opinion the swellings fit together. My vote for wonderful Petra 😃

    I managed the upload of a detail - image! Thanks for your help Boleyn 😄

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    I have a question about matching criteria especially concerning this camera - view, where differnt groups seem to be around: We first had a female with an infant looking like Blondie, match excluded by the argument of group constellation. (Very good and very convincing detective work by midnightsun. See https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP0002290 )
    Now we have a female looking like Petra, match doubted again, because of group constellation.

    In the blog by maureen about the paper “An assessment of the efficacy of camera traps for studying demographic composition and variation in chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes)”, we read that the chimpanzee IDs are very valuable for " figure out the chimpanzee community’s composition based on the camera trap data ".

    Wouldn´t this mean, that we risk a circular reasoning, when reasearch about group constellation is based on a matching that is based on group constellation?

    My question: Should group constellation be a main criterion for excluding or confirming chimp matches? I mean especially for cameras that seem to show members of several groups. I don´t mean to doubt it generally.

    Please don´t hesitate telling me when this is uncomprehensible rubbish, I know this sometimes happens to me, when digging far too deep. :-\

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Thank you HeikeW!!

    I thought Maureen could give you the best answer...I have already told her about your question 😃

    Posted

  • maureenmccarthy by maureenmccarthy scientist, moderator

    Thanks, HeikeW!

    By group constellation, I think you mean what we might call party composition, the group of individuals associating together at a certain time and place. In this case, you are very correct in questioning making IDs based on this. In our paper that you mentioned above, we found that only about half of the individuals present appear in the cameras on average. This means we miss a lot of those associations! We can definitely notice patterns ("A seems to appear on camera with B often"), but the chimpanzees can also surprise us sometimes in who they associate with.

    Bottom line: No, party composition and associations should not be used as a main criterion to confirm or exclude IDs.

    It's best to rely on identifiable features, and although associations among individuals can rightly be used as little supporting clues, we should be very careful not to rely too heavily on them.

    Please note here that party composition is different than community composition. The community is the entire group of chimpanzees who associate together. Chimpanzees are territorial and they behave aggressively in encounters with "outsiders" from other communities. So while party compositions (the individuals you see together on camera at any given time) can change a lot from moment to moment within a community, you are very unlikely to ever see chimpanzees from two different communities appear together.

    Hope this helps! 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    And because the chimps in question here belong to the habituated chimps (Ngogo chimps), as we do see researchers following them closely, and the other ones do not, we can exclude these IDs in this case.

    So, it's a little bit different from Maureen's explanation above, which is within a group (community) important, of course.

    Thanks for bringing this up!

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    Thanks Nuria, Maureen and Anja,

    jes, I think this helps. Let me try wether I understood what this meens for our practical matching here:

    This camera shows another community indicated by the Ngogo researchers following them. So for our Green Snowflake chimps this is foreign territory. A mother wouldn´t carry her child through it and Petra wouldn´t sit on the ground in full daylight.

    What about the male nightchimps Boleyn mentioned. Are they possible matches as chimp warriors patroling on a frontier or can they even indicate a conflict between the two communities?
    So, does it make sense to match male nightchimps from this camera with the Green Snowflake community?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi Heike,

    So from my point of view and understanding, the issue here is neither the camera, nor the other chimps in this group. The issue is that they are followed by researchers as this is one continuous long sequence and we do see the researcher. Unhabituated chimps would not walk calmly with researchers and mind their own business. They would just run away. Usually.

    So, we did not talk about the group constellation, but about the humans here.

    Because they are traveling together, they are one group. As Maureen said, for chimps from different groups the gathering would not be peaceful. Blondie's group has never been seen with researchers, so we think it must be another group. But yeah, we think this because of assumptions that we made.

    In fact, we have the interesting situation here that we do see on the same camera and at the same day a group of chimps followed by researchers (we think the Ngogo chimps) and later at night chimps that we identified as belonging to our main group (Bohr, Cassini). So, two different groups on the same territory at the same day. Maybe the nightchimps travel there at night because they want to avoid the other group - or the human presence?

    I also want to mention that we did not exclude Petra based on the camera position. We did not make the match because we do not know for sure that this is our community here. In our community (Cassini, Vala etc.) we know meanwhile that Petra is with a high probability the only chimp with such a stature, swelling, and without a baby. The only other "single" female is Sal (missing her hand and lower arm) and we can exclude her for sure. We can exclude someone else only if we are 100% sure that this is a community we know by heart and have already seen each member.

    If we can't exclude that this is a different community - and we can't here because we've seen a different community at this camera - and we also have nobody else clearly visible that belongs to Petra's group while she is there, then we should not make a match of a far away chimp.

    But both situations (questioned IDs) here are different and not based on the camera position, nor on the chimps they are with on that day. Maureen talks about within-community associations that are called parties and can change from day to day, but certain chimps might have preferences.

    Our discussions here have been about different communities (group 1, group 2, Ngogo - there might be three, but this is not absolutely certain). You would not usually expect them hanging out together and - if we would be sure - we could probably exclude certain IDs for certain situations.

    Sorry, too long answer.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    As far as I know it still could be Petra because we know that females leave their usual groups often. Could not the fact that Petra didn't get pregnant for quite a while indicate that she is looking for another group with other males? Just wondering...

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Yes, she could be Petra. But for what we actually see and because of the fact that we know that it could be a female from another community from which we don't have much experience - this is pure speculation. In addition, she does not look like Petra, especially the brows.

    She could be Mona, Hedy, Scarlett, for instance. She looks cosiderably smaller than the adult male before her. Ears, balding, brows would fit, because we actually don't see much. Face coloration might be darker because of the shadows.

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    Hi AnLand, thanks again, answers can never be too long for me.

    Please let me try if I got it now.

    We have to differ between community composition and party composition. Parties and associations are changing constellations within one community. In contrast to the changing parties, members of different communities wouldn´t be seen together without reacting aggressive except perhaps, like Boleyn mentioned, in the case that a female tries to immigrate.

    In GreenSnowflake we can´t be 100% sure how many communities we see, but we can be quite sure that this camera here shows members of different commmunities.

    As the female looking like Blondie walks calmly within a group that is habituated to resarchers we can be quite sure that she belongs to another community than Blondie. This seems to be an exception where we really can exclude a match by "community - membership"

    The situation at the fallen feeding tree and at the clay hole, where Blondie is frequently seen in various party constellations is different. It is very likely that we see one community and, as Maureen explained, all the individuals beeing around did show in the videos until the end of the project. This gives us the chance to match a few individuals by eclusion of another. But only in the case that only two individuals fit to one description. We can say: "As this can´t be Sal, it must be Petra." And "As this can´t be Paddy, this must be Eliot." This seems to be another exception where "community - membership" helps identifying a few chimps.

    All this is not possible for our female here. As the camera shows members of differnt communities, a match with Petra can´t be excluded by "community - membership" and it can´t be verified by excluding Sal. This seems to be the normal situation.

    Here we have to rely on the physical details and other individuals beeing around can only give us a hint, that we should perhaps have one more critical look at the physical appearance of an individual. Or in other cases they may give us an idea where to look for possible matches.

    I hope I got it right now?

    Thanks for your patience

    Heike

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    This is an excellent summary! Much more concise than my lengthy explanations above.

    Just that there is no false impression here: migration for a young female is not without risks. She is still a foreigner.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Heike, I'm impressed! To the point! 😄

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    How about Petra in videos? ACP000dp6q not much, more here ACP000dp6r. Dark hair, grey muzzle, quite a belly, swelling seams to agree. What do others think? Better seen in video.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I could get behind this proposal

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    One more vote for Petra??

    🐵

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here
    ACP000dp6r ........................................................... ACP000dt7z Petra

    It is her swelling, bodybuild and colour of muzzle fit. Although she doesn´t show us her ears, I agree that it´s Petra 😮)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Here's a clip of a dark haired, well nourished female without offspring which can only be Petra: ACP000dud6 Swelling is quite well seen.

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I agree with Petra here 😃

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    So do I 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @Snorticus already posted ACP000dnjb on page 9 and suggesting Petra, Nuria was not sure, I support Petra here, her face is quite typical as are built and color and the fact, that she is alone.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here
    ACP000drjb ......................................... ACP000dtsw Petra ......................... ACP000drjb ...................................... ACP000dt7z Petra

    Sorry, I´m not sure. Bodybuild and face seem to fit bbut are quite blurry. Swelling doesn´t look perfectly similar. I have no idea though who else it could be 😕

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Thanks Heike, yes it's a bit blurry, but I think her face looks as grumpily as in her best movies: Petra = the Drama Queen 😄

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator

    I tagged Petra in ACP000dp6q and ACP000dp6r 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Anyone in favour or against Petra in ACP000dnjb ?

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I'm sorry I don't see Petra 😕

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun

    I think this is Petra. It's all her traits plus her folks have been seen her. ACP000dnjb

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Hi everyone, please be kind when the science team is making a conservative call and does not agree with a match. Thanks very much! If you disagree you can of course provide more evidence to back up your hypothesis.

    I think we have talked about it before too - making matches based on associations is very risky, chimpanzees with their fission fusion social system will associate preferentially with the friends and family of course but almost anyone can show up with anyone, so please stick to matches based on constant traits or in the case of swellings with a timeline that backs up your hypothesis. thanks!!

    Its always good for everyone to review the zooniverse community guidelines to freshen up on how positive discourse can take place 😃
    https://www.zooniverse.org/talk/14/672147

    Posted

  • midnightsun by midnightsun in response to MimiA's comment.

    It wasn't mean unkind, I do support the opinion that this is Petra and I recognize her as such. I will edit the posting. The lower right brow, the swelling, the baldness, and also the robust body speak for Petra. The thread is still marked as open for discussion.

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Thanks @midnightsun!

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator

    Since it's not for sure I created a new temp ID. Say hi to GSFem42 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi GSFem42! 😉 Thanks, Antonio! Thread un**starred.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Buzharevski's comment.

    I am also rather convinced that this is Petra. I'll just leave it here.

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thank you for your suggestion Anja. I'd rather go on a conservative route with this one and give a temp ID. If it's not sorted out in time she will be assigned as Petra.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I just realized we have another open video here that need SciMod confirmation, on page 20 I posted:

    "Here's a clip of a dark haired, well nourished female without offspring which can only be Petra: ACP000dud6 Swelling is quite well seen."

    Laura and Heike agree to Petra. So we just need Antonio's voice to close this case as well. Thanks!

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I agree. Gonna tag now 😃

    Posted