Chimp & See Talk

Odd lip, notched right ear

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    @Dustwolf found this interesting male chimp with an odd lip, might be just temporarily turned under on right side. Looks more normal in later clips but seems something is odd about it. Also a deep notch in his right ear, bony face, long nose, white fringe beard, somewhat slim build. All three chimps are pretty distinctive looking. Dated 05-16-2013 at 10:19

    Series - ACP000da71 ACP000da73 ACP000da76 ACP000da79

    ACP000da71 Odd lip here.

    enter image description here

    ACP000da73 - Another view of odd lip & his bony face plus a good face view of the robust female. Is he possibly missing his left index finger? May just be the angle of view when he grasps the tree.

    enter image description here

    ACP000da76 - Lip looks pretty normal here, note notched right ear.

    enter image description here

    ACP000da76 - Bony face + good view of the pale pink faced juvenile here.

    enter image description here

    ACP000da79 - Lip pretty normal here, best view of his deeply notched right ear.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    wow, he is really bruised 😮 ! I think you are right about his missing left index finger.

    these three guys deserve an ID :

    #GSMale02

    #GSFem06

    #GSJuv01

    Thanks!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Is it definitely a male? The back view looks a bit strange, I think with some pinkish dot and I would expect to see the testicles. I actually thought this is an older female, but I might be wrong, of course. 😕

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I @AnLand,

    I have checked it a couple of times too, I can´t see his testicles and that confused me a bit. I decided to claim male as If it was a female, and looking so old, you would expect some kind of swelling marks and a bit more visible nipples. But I will ask for more opinions anyway 😕

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    hi! it is true that the testicles are not visible, but I think that the swelling should be even more visible, so I would say male 😉

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Thanks Paula!

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Really good eye @AnLand and good idea to be conservative here.

    I asked around here a bit and its true, its not clear - this chimp is quite slender like a female and we see no testicles.

    On the other hand, there is really no swelling visible at all as far as I or others can see. The rear looks more male than female (except for the lack of testicles of course!)

    So, this individual should get Adu as its tempID i think. Luckily, with that very distinctive face we have a good chance of seeing him/her again and trying to solve this conundrum!

    I love a good mystery!! 😄

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    Thanks Mimi,

    I will fix the ID to Adu instead of Male. You are right, we will find better videos of her/him for sure, and we will have the chance to solve this mistery.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    New to me term - Adu. Is this an acronym?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    What Mimi means is the Unclear category. We do not really use Adu for temp IDs. It is just short for adult and used in other contexts.

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Hunh! I didn't realize we haven't been using it - so what does a temp ID for an adult chimp look like when its clearly an adult but of unkonwn sex? or has that not happened before?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    It would be #GSUnclear01. We used this before. It would automatically imply that it is an adult, as juveniles often are not identified to the sex level and would get a general #GSJuv tag.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    Ahh, I do remember seeing this #GSUnclear01 type of tag. At first I thought it was some kind of zoological gender term that I didn't know. Thanks!

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    Interesting, I'm gonna talk to the science team about this, thanks!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    So by concensus, I will change this chimp to #GSUNCLEAR01 😃

    Thanks @AnLand for pointing this out.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Don't @ me, but while looking for an adjacent chimp clip I found #GSUnclear01 again. I still cannot see the hind quarters enough to tell gender. Face has the odd lip, bony features, and the notched right ear. Quite long limbed and slim, probably an older chimp. Dated 05-16-2013 at 10:32 Same day but 13 minutes later.

    ACP000d9qa ACP000d9qc ACP000d9qe ACP000d9qf

    ACP000d9qe - chimp with bony face & notched right ear:

    enter image description here

    ACP000da79 - Compare to #GSUnclear01 facial view here:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    thanks @Snorticus for your find!

    S/he is no doubt GSUNCLEAR01. Unfortunatelly we still can´t tell the sex 😦

    I was hopping that we have a match here, but these videos are actually part of the same GSUNCLEAR01 sequence.

    Can´t wait to see him/her again!!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000d9xr A better look at #GSUnclear01 from behind and I still can't decide gender. Maybe you all can.

    ACP000d9xo ACP000d9xp ACP000d9xq ACP000d9xr

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    thanks @Snorticus 😃

    I can´t see testes either.

    Either she is a female or he suffers from cryptorchidism 😕

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    For me, it looks still more female, especially as you also do not see a penis (and have a juvenile around). But the unclear category is fine, of course. It is far from clear.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks @AnLand, I tend to think of the female possibility too.

    But let´s wait for new videos to come 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    With the new backside pic I'm also leaning towards female.
    Could it be that she is in menopause and thus the swelling is regressing?

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    it could be she is menopausal but as far as i know the swelling does not regress in that case 😕

    I was thinking that maybe it could be a male that had been attacked by a neighbouring group and survived, intergroup attacks often target the groin area (butt the victims rarely survive)... https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1023/B:IJOP.0000023574.38219.92.pdf

    looking forward to more video!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    That´s interesting. I didn´t think of that possibility. Let´s keep our eyes wide open!

    thanks Mimi for the link 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    In these videos ACP000cux8 found by @Snorticus and @Brytt and ACP000cux9 found by @junemb we see a quite similar threesome.
    Could this be GSUnclear01 and company? The backside is much better seen in the videos. Also the female's back looks like GSFem06 (similar swelling). Not sure about GSJuv01. There is a similar pointy tuft.

    It's different lighting condition here but I think it might be possible or am I going bananas?

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    @Boleyn, I can´t see GSUNCLEAR01 in this guy. GSUNCLEAR01´s face is very distinctive, bony and with this deformation in his upper lip.

    compare these two faces; left ACP000cux8 and right CSUNCLEAR01 in ACP000da76

    enter image description here

    as for the females, CSFemale06´s rear looks darker and rounder than the lady´s in ACP000cux8. ACP000cux8 on the left, GSFemale06 on the right:

    enter image description here

    I can´t say much about the juveniles, just that GSJuv01´s face looks more pinkish, but that could be due to the different light.

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    For the moment, he´s #GSMale02 😃

    thanks!!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks @NuriaM! Now having them side by side I see the differences quite clearly. The bony backside of this guy and the constellation played some tricks on my eyes - I was obviously working too much yesterday 😛 😮

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This sequence also catched my eye, but I could not decide about a possible match. It doesn't really fit.

    But I wanted to ask - having a similar situation here to #GSUnclear01 - what makes you think that this is definitely a male? There are no testicles, a quite lean body frame, and the butt looks similar to what we've seen in #GSUnclear01. I have also seen this video (not a match proposal!) ACP000dnxv with a similar back view of a hidden swelling with only a little pinkish dot. And I think, we would all agree that she is a female. But I am just asking, what makes this a male for you. Maybe I missed something in the dicussion.

    From ACP000dnxv

    enter image description here

    The individual in question (now #GSMale02) from ACP000cux8

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to MimiA's comment.

    LOL Mimi, I LOVE that typo - a Freudian slip? 😮 ......target the groin area (butt the victims rarely survive)...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    @AnLand, you are right, this guy´s sex is a bit confusing. I have admited him as a male because males rear have this triangular or heart-shaped rump, mostly grayish in color. I see no swelling shape. However, the testicles are not clearly visible, although I think I can see them at sec. 7 in ACP000cux9 .

    But I always say that we must be conservative, and I want to practice what I preach 😃 . I will ask for more opinions and if there´s no agreement, I will move him/her to the UNCLEAR cathegory.

    Thanks for being so perfectionist 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Sorry, @NuriaM I really don't know what I should make out of this weird backside. 😕

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000cux8 and ACP000cux9 - I thought these were both females. I thought the juvenile and the adult track each other so closely because they are mother and kid. The backside looks shrivled but I think I see pink in the lower part and I don't really see testicles. More of the rumps here seem less clearly delineated than at previous sites. It's curious.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    thanks @Snorticus for weighing in here. The more I watch the video, the more I´m convinced that I might have been wrong. Maureen agrees on female too.

    So GSMale02 in not GSMale02 anymore, but GSFem07 😃

    Thank you guys!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am thinking about whether we see in ACP000dbso / ACP000dbsp GSFem07 again and the juvenile that we've seen with her.

    She is a slim female with a face that is quite wide considering the very thin body frame. The juveniles have the same size and there is a habit of bipedality. She has rounded brows and a midline roundisch balding. Ears seem to be OK.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Yep, could be...

    I see that their hind limbs look same thin. And the eyes area look similarily shadowed.

    enter image description here

    and GSFem07 (in ACP000cux8 )

    enter image description here

    The juveniles look similar too: size fits

    ACP000dbsp :

    enter image description here

    ACP000cux8 :

    enter image description here

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I can't tell much about the face. The angles and lights are too different for me to determine. But the built looks quite alike. Actually I don't think she's especially slim, it's just her hind legs. The body and shoulders seem to be normal, maybe even a bit bulky.

    The juvenile's silhouettes look very alike.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    thanks @Boleyn,

    anyone wants to weigh in here?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    ACP000d9e9 (originally found by @midnightsun)

    Here is GSunclear01 again, with his/her friend GSfem06:

    According to the spreadsheet, the above is just a few minutes after ACP000da73 from the same location:
    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    I´m really looking forward to finding his/her match!!

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Agreed. I hope they live here and are not just visiting "border chimps".

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    more of this chimp in ACP000d9b3 ACP000d9b4 ACP000d9b5

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    thanks!

    ...and we still can´t figure out if male or female 😠

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Here s/he is again in ACP000d9eh

    From this clip, I would have to say she's female, as there are no signs of any testicles:

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thanks Laura!

    I see no testicles either, but I see a typical male rear anyway: triangular or heart-shaped grayish rump 😕

    if female, I would expect to see some sort of detumescence...I need more opinions

    GSUNCLEAR01 in ACP000d9xr

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I always argued that this isn't a male, so I naturally agree here with Laura. But I also think, it's not totally obvious. To add an idea, but also not absolutely clear: in ACP000d9ay / ACP000d9qe / ACP000d9ui / ACP000d9xo / ACP000da48 - we always get a glimpse on a whitish piece of skin that might be a nipple (left side). I cannot find a perfect view, but maybe we could discuss this.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I´m sorry, but I am super uncertain about this guy´s sex...I see your point, and missing testicles should be a clear clue for female, but something tells me that its appearance, body build, rear and context go more in the male direction 😕

    If you don´t mind, I would still leave it unclear, until we get a concensus...

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Maybe this clip of GSUnclear01 might shed some light on the sex of this chimp? ACP000d9ef

    When s/he was male shouldn't we see the tiniest hint of testis in this position? But all we can see is something like a small, dark swelling - or at least that's my impression. All the clips we have of GSunnclear01 are from the same date. Maybe she's just in that part of cycling when the swelling is the smallest? But I'm no expert here at all and that's just wild guess 😃

    Because we think that this is an older chimp I googled chimpanzee and menopause and was astonished to learn that scientists still are not sure whether chimps do go through a menopause or not. The tenor is that in the wild they usually do not live long enough to actually go into menopause but chimp ladies are also often giving birth at the age of over 50 or even 60 in captivity as well as in the wild when they survive so long. Older females are often even preferred over younger ones by the males (not bad, huh? 😛) This article from Jon Cohen is quite interesting.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I have been rechecking the whole GSUNCLEAR01 sequence to find evidence that it´s a female.

    I can´t find any kind of testicles in any of the videos, and in ACP000d9ay I think we can see the left nipple, as Anja mentioned before:

    enter image description here

    So I must admit that you guys are right, GSUNCLEAR01 is a female, and I was wrong 😒

    GSFem28 .

    Thanks everyone!!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanks Heidi for the link 😃

    Posted