Chimp & See Talk

Vala & Applejack: female with small infant

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Video ACP000dmqo

    Not the best video, but we do get a good look at the adult's face:

    Her eyes appear almost swollen in this video, with a flat nose and a triangular bald patch on the forehead. The right ear looks intact (cannot see the left). We only get a blurry image of the infant's face and rear, but she (if I had to guess) appears small and thin.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    thanks @lauraklynn !

    #GSFem04 and #GSInf04. Note: I know it should be GSInf03, but I prefer to keep the mom´s numerical ID to avoid confusion when we have many moms with and without infants.

    she seems to have eye bags!! 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Clip found by @Batfan: ACP000dnbo

    Not certain, but this looks like it could be her again. It's always hard to compare B&W versus color. The eyes are hard to see, but they look a bit puffy and the brows have the same curviness to them. Similar baldness pattern and wide, flat nose. The infant looks about the same size (and seems to like to ride side-saddle):

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    @lauraklynn, I find it hard too to compare black and white videos, but in this case I agree with you; their eyes seem to be sort of "embedded" in both cases. Ears agree and infant´s size too.

    what do others think?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This might just be a wild guess, but maybe we could discuss a match of ACP000dpoz and ACP000dl90.

    She is a robust female with slightly grayish back, a distinctive swelling rounded by blakish skin. She seems to be quite bald, but we do not have a good face view now. The infant is most adorable.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    From ACP000dpoz

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    If we are discussing these 2, I want to also throw in the possibility that they are a match to the pair in this discussion as well

    ACP000dpp3 gives a glimpse of the female's face:

    The infant's enormous round ears and general body condition make me think this is a match as well

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    thank you ladies.

    @lauraklynn, I think I should give the lady in ACP000dnbo an ID. I still think that she is a match to GSFem04 and that we should go back to that discussion again. For the moment they are #GSFem04b and #GSInf04b 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I always find it hard to match chimps if I don´t get to see their faces (unless there is a very distinctive trait, of course).

    However, these two ladies rears look quite similar and the infants too. The infants look in fact like GSInf04b:

    up left ACP000dl90 , down left ACP000dpoz , right GSFem04b and GSInf04b.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    and here ACP000dpp3 and GSFem04b: their left brow and ear look very similar.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    So to summarize I think:

    ACP000dl90 = ACP000dpoz = #GSFem04b = #GSFem04

    I need more opinions 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I was also wondering about this beeing a match when I've seen this funny infant.
    Two things that stand out for me: (literally in one of the cases 😃)

    1. the left eyebrow of the female
    2. the very pointy and specially shaped tuft of the infant. I also think it's a girl.

    So yes, I agree on the match with GSFem04 and 04b.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I agree to this and would like to add ACP000dkof and ACP000dnxv. I see the same slightly rounded gray back, an infant of fitting size. She really has always quite a big belly.

    enter image description here

    If we can agree to these sequences as well we would have learned something that might help with other matches too: ACP000dkof is half an hour after ACP000dl90 (see ACP000dl8z) and ACP000dnxv (see ACP000dnxu) is just minutes after ACP000dpoz - so the cameras should be very close (and the time stamp needs to be reliable).

    And because the sequences are so close in time, we need to make extra sure that this is true. Just an idea!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks @AnLand,

    ACP000dkof : I can´t see much of her face, specially her left brow. Infant size fits though 😕

    ACP000dnxv : do you mean the first chimp or the second one?

    I´m going to need more opinions about these last two proposals, but for the moment, we seem to agree on:
    ACP000dl90 = ACP000dpoz = #GSFem04b = #GSFem04 , so, we are going to need a name 😃

    @lauraklyn was the one who first proposed a match between Fem04 and Fem04b here . Laura, would you?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Hmm. Let me think on it a couple days. Unless someone else has perfect name in mind and wants to chime in? I won't be offended

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    No problem! take your time 😃

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Let's go with Vala

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks Laura! "Vala" is cool☺️

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    ACP000dkof : I can´t see much of her face, specially her left brow. Infant size fits though 😕

    ACP000dnxv : do you mean the first chimp or the second one?

    About your questions:

    ACP000dkof: my match proposal was originally based on the gray back and swelling (as well as the infant), so that would be for me the decisive trait is the face is not seen. She has the same gray and strangely rounded back, and the small swelling.

    ACP000dnxv: the first one (also here: same back, same swelling, infant size fits well)

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    ACP000dnxu ACP000dnxv Agree that this is Vala and her skinny slow infant with the big pale ears.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I agree with ACP000dnxu ACP000dnxv too (tagged 😃 )

    As for ACP000dkof you could be right @AnLand, I can see the big belly too, thoughts?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    This video ACP000dlnl was popping up for classification and I think it shows again Vala and her adorable infant as already found at this spot.

    Nuria I think it might be helpful if you could add the name "Vala" to the title. I think there will be more videos of her and we can find the right thread faster.
    Also, for some reason, video ACP000dnbo is tagged with Vala but it doesn't show up in the Vala tag group. No idea why this is.

    Thanks!

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Yeah that looks like Vala and her little one 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Yessss, I agree with you.

    Tittle: updated

    Tag Group: no idea why that is, but as long as the video is tagged, I´m fine with it.

    what do you think about the lady in ACP000dkof ? could she be Vala too?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yes, this could be Vala as well: looks about the same size, same dark hair color, flat nose and forehead, quite straight brow and she has that prominent part in her right ear, that ridge which stands out. Also around sec 3 we can see the big white, bird-like tuft of the infant. No good stills though of that one...

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanks @Boleyn, I agree with you 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000ds1q - found by @charly03 grey oddly curved back female and pale faced infant look like Vala & her baby possibly.

    ACP000ds1o - earlier in the series shows her face, large nostrils, same muzzle shape, pale side beard.

    enter image description here

    ACP000dnbo - Totally different light & angle, but here is Vala's face.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    Wow. I'm not sure if that is her or not @Snorticus. My gut says not, but I have been wrong before. She is so far away and I cannot see her behind or infant well enough to make a confident determination.

    I think this is Vala though:

    ACP000dozn

    enter image description here

    Found by @charly03. I see a bulbous belly and the rear end looks the same. The infant looks the same as well.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Hi @Snorticus , I am not that sure... the infants size fit, but don´t you think that Vala´s face is a bit rounder? and her brows are slightly straighter? and here I´m not sure if its a light effect, but the bald patches look a bit different too: Vala´s look thinner to me.

    Left, Vala ( ACP000dnbo ), right GSFem11 ( ACP000ds1o ). I have turned and zoomed the GSFem11 still, so that we can compare them better:

    enter image description here

    But for now the new lady and her infant, and the juvenile beside her get tempIDs: GSFem11 + GSInf11, and GSJuv04 😃

    Thanks!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    Laura I agree with you that this lady is Vala with her infant.

    left ACP000dozn , right Vala and infant 14 days later, in ACP000dpoz

    enter image description here

    the infants look the same to me, and the swelling phase chronology fits too 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    With what identity should we tag Vala's infant? GSInf04? I've seen that not all videos are tagged here with the infant's identity and I think it's still a while until naming. (I can do it, I just wanted to ask first for the agreed temp ID for all videos of this cutie. I think, it should be GSInf04.)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    thanks Anja, good eye!

    I have already added #GSInf04 to all the Vala´s videos

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    One more for the Vala and infant collection ACP000dl91 found by @Batfan and @MissTuk

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanksssss 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000do8r - found by @charly03 looks like Vala with her slanted brow & #GSInf04 at the water hole again.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    yes, I agree, she looks like Vala.

    Vala´s distinctive eyes area, dark and sort of swollen eyes:

    Vala in ACP000dnbo

    enter image description here

    and ACP000do8r

    enter image description here

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Agreed, that's Vala!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yay!!

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000doat (found by @Corcaroli) - the chimp closer to the camera is Vala and her infant, I think. In the back might be Katie with her newborn, but it's not well seen. More based on the black back and the very young age of the infant. I think, we've seen her first with an infant in January 2013.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks @AnLand

    I agree with you, the female on the left is Vala with her beautiful infant.

    I don´t think the other one is Katie: Katie´s newborn was first seen in July 2013 ( ACP000dlwi , still untagged as it´s waiting for classification. You found it and shared it here).

    The video that you post now ( ACP000doat ) was taken in February 2013, 5 months before...the infant sizes don´t fit.

    Thoughts?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Oh sorry, I did not check the data properly and just thought, we've seen the infant in January. My fault. 😕 (I also meanwhile think that her hand is fine. That rules out Katie, too.)

    But on the other hand it means, we have to look for another female with a very tiny newborn.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    yessss 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    Further in the ( ACP000doat ) series, .

    ACP000doay - I think we can see missing fingers on the left hand of other female with a small infant. Better seen in video. Also fairly straight brow, ears look intact, circular centered bald spot, greyish legs.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Thanks @Snorticus! We see so many chimps without fingers at this site!

    They are now GSFem14 & GSInf14.

    And I am sure the lady on the left is Vala...I couldn´t resist and looked for more videos of this series, and look what I found in ACP000doaw :

    enter image description here

    I see Vala´s eyes in her. Besides, she is seen in ACP000do8r , three minutes before...what do you guys think?

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yup! Those are Vala's brows!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to lauraklynn's comment.

    yay!!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I think ACP000dm6u (found by @Batfan and @MissTuk) is Vala and her infant. The facial view is quite good and these are her brows. Infant size fits.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Looks like Vala, I agree.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Yes, she is Vala. Thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dktm - Vala and infant here? Slanted brow, dark fur, slim.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Hmmmm...she certainly looks like Vala, but I´m not completely sure.

    Could someone else weigh in here?

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    hmmm...I'm not sure. I went looking for a another face shot in the full minute and in the first video I found this one (not yet classified):
    This doesn't look like Vala to me. Baldness would fit but the brows should be more slanted and the muzzle not as bright. Actually I'm not sure whether this is a full grown chimp but rather a subadult? Compare to the one sitting befind the log.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    @Boleyn and @Snorticus: I would agree this is not Vala. I know lighting can be deceiving, but Vala's face appears much darker than this in all other images in this discussion. It actually looks a lot like Eliot to me, and I am pretty sure I see a missing index finger in one of the other videos from this series (...dkti):
    enter image description here

    The infant does strongly resemble Vala's, so perhaps she is behind the log?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks chicas!!!!

    so not Vala but maybe Eliot...

    Laura, I think you are right about the missing left index; I think this guy could be Eliot:

    left: Eliot chewing in ACP000dr1f , ritght ACP000dkti chewing (unclassified):

    enter image description here

    what do you guys think?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Yes, Eliot! See also this pic here, I think his very clear drawn browline, roundish bald spot and lighter muzzle all speak for Eliot 😃

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Great!

    ACP000dktm tagged 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dnve - from the chimps list: a great portrait of Vala!

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    nice! 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Here's another Vala and infant video ACP000dmqp found by @charly03 and @Madeline123 the one after the already confirmed ACP000dmqo.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks girls 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dqay - ACP000dqb0 - More found Vala series clips.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dpsy - @Corcaroli found Vala and her baby again, I think.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Yes, looks like Vala and baby. Nice how she gently thouches the baby to tell to hold on 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thank you ladies!!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dlfy - Anja, Laura, & I think this female has the Vala brows.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    and so do I 😃

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • lauraklynn by lauraklynn moderator

    I think think these are all Vala and her infant:

    ACP000dks4

    ACP000dr2x

    ACP000dljb

    ACP000do7a

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000dljb - Vala & infant?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Great!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    This lady in front has the Vala brows and the little one is agile as ever. ACP000drx7

    Not sure about the one in the back, maybe Paddy?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    No, Eliot.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Exactly, that´s Vala with Eliot (see the right hand with missing index on the log).

    thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Vala and infant waiting to be confirmed in ACP000dlin 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    confirmed 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Nuria you and others supposed Vala in this series and I agree. 😃 ACP000dsvu ACP000dsvv ACP000dsvw ACP000dsvx ACP000dt0g ACP000dt0i ACP000dt0l ACP000dsub ACP000dsuc ACP000dsud

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000drrd - ACP000drrh - Vala & infant & Eliot

    ( @NuriaM ID tagged here 2 minutes later in ACP000drx7 )

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Danke!!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    yessss 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    clare50 found this video ACP000dp6p with Vala and infant I think. Her brows, the infants' ear and tuft look quite convincing to me 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes, absolutely! also, the skinny infant fits 😃

    thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    While reviewing the Greensnowflake videos I've seen quite a few with Vala and her skinny infant of which I think it's a boy. See this video: ACP000dl8z
    Edit: I just found another video where Mimi confirms that it's a boy: ACP000dq96

    What I really wonder though is why Vala seems to be pregnant already again while her infant is still so small. Laura also mentioned in a video that Vala looks pregnant and I think in this one we can see her really big belly quite well: ACP000dqb0

    Could it be that this infant has a health issue like growth disturbance? He really looks underfed but he tries to do a lot of things himself as the bigger juveniles do. I'm worried about this sweet little boy 😕

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes, the infant was confirmed as male, as it is writen in the description.

    Hmm, it´s a good question; she should be fertile again when her infant is fully weaned, which is approximately in 5 years. A 5 year-old infant is centaily bigger and much more agile. You are right, he tries to behave like a big boy (he separates from mom very often), but he looks very clumsy. And she really looks pregnant. Maybe he has a health issue as you say, or maybe he is not her biological infant but was adopted instead, which could explain a slow grouth and thinness as a consequence of an insuficient nutrition.

    See https://www.livescience.com/8052-altruistic-chimpanzees-adopt-orphans.html ..

    Lets´s ask others 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks for the explanation and the link, Nuria!
    So you would agree that she is pregnant?

    Sorry, I missed that he was already confirmed as male. I've read somewhere that he was considered to be a girl und thus did not check properly 😛

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    at least she has a big round belly. She could have a tumor too, which could explain a poor quality milk and thus a slow growth of the infant...but of course this is all speculation.

    I can´t find more videos of Vala after this date, so we can´t know what happens with her belly afterwards 😦

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    I think everything that has been said so far is possible and good hypotheses 😃 I'm not sure she is pregnant but if she is it could also be that she is just having a shorter than normal inter birth interval, I would have to see what the shortest interbirth interval recorded has been but we know generally when resources are good the interbirth interval decreases, and Green Snowflake is a pretty nice place to be a chimp. Some interesting insights in this paper : https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/23/6/1234/190391

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am not sure about any pregnancy. Vala's belly has the same size from the first time we've seen her (mid-November 2012) until June 2013. I don't see any growth in her belly, but the infant is definitely growing. But he is still skinny, I agree, but also mobile and inquisitive. Melissa Emery Thompson, the author of the paper linked by Mimi, talked once about a female who got pregnant with a very young infant and said that the infant got apathetic, whined, and made nursing movements indicating it is hungry. In the end, the female was harrassed by a male, climbed quickly in a tree, and the infant couldn't hold on and fell. (I linked the talk here somewhere, I am pretty sure and will find it hopefully.)

    I would also expect some extent of cycling in her, or? Compare with Katie (e.g., ACP000dlnn, ACP000dr3d, ACP000dl5j) who we know is actually pregnant.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thank you ladies for explanations and links.

    Sometimes it's just outright frustrating to leave the chimps behind because there's no more further video material. 😕
    Is there any chance we'll get to see this particular group again? I know reasearch is done at many different places but do you also go back to certain places and record how the population changes?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I just came across this video of Kiana and her infant ACP000dspq: her belly is as big and her infant also skinny. So, I don't think that Vala is anything more extreme. It's just variation, if anything, I believe.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Oh yes, thank you! Maybe all this wood-eating and clay-eating is not very nice on your waistline 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    In ACP000dmdw we seem to have the swollen middlefinger of Vala again. The infant in the next clips ACP000dmdy ACP000dme0 and ACP000dme2 is 100% Applejack 😃

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Sure! I am sure these are Vala and Applejack, I am tagging them. If there´s someone who disagrees, we can always undo.

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    yes, Applejack 😃

    Posted