Flores: female with infant (and maybe a damaged left hand)
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by Snorticus
ACP000doat - ACP000doaw - ACP000doay - dated Feb/5/2013 - GSFem14 & very young infant GSInf14 (Anja noted that it is a newborn). Fairly straight brow, kinda hard to get a good look at her features in shadow.
ACP000doay - Feb-5-2013 Is GSFem14 missing some fingers from her left hand?
Posted
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by midnightsun
I've seen ACP000dp8u (found by @Batfan) in the Recents and the left hand of the female looks a bit strange. I am not sure about the damage obviously, but maybe others are more experienced and can have a look. There seems to be a thumb, but I cannot really see any fingers. She carries a young infant, has very grey legs and back, and straight brows. Ears look good; baldness is hard to see from the top view when she looks down at the water hole.
What we can see here is at least consistent with GSFem14 and her infant. I checked the dates with looking at the other clips. This new video is from 2013/04/02 and GSFem14 was seen 2013/02/05 with a very small infant.
As I am not sure about the damaged hand, I decided to open a new thread to not mess up the GSFem14 discussion if this is not a good match.
The best screenshots of the left hand
A bit more of her face
Posted
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by midnightsun
Yes, that's what the description in the prospective chimps list says. I also just made a match proposal here. Maybe you could have a look? I am not sure, of course ...
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
This looks very promising to me @midnightsun, I think you made a match. The poor chimp does have a damaged left hand, same as GSFem14. We can also see that typical gray long hair in her neck which we can shortly see in clip ACP000doay of GSFem14.
@NuriaM will be back on Monday. She'll have a lot to catch up, me thinks 😃
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
Yes, looks good to me too. Very similar traits (brows, grayness etc.) and an injury. I would agree. 😃
Posted
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by Snorticus in response to midnightsun's comment.
@midnightsun agree with you that this is a match to GSFem14 Better look at the left hand here too.
Posted
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by Snorticus in response to midnightsun's comment.
Excellent, yes to this match @midnightsun Maybe we should merge these two threads if @NuriaM agrees next week?
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.
yes!! @midnightsun , we have another match, and now it´s your turn for a name 😃
here your match:
GSFem14 & GSInf14:
ACP000doat
ACP000doaw
ACP000doay=
THANKS!
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.
merged 😃
Posted
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by midnightsun
Thank you! I would like to name her Flores.
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Lovely name! ...and isn't she a beautiful flower of her species? 😃
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.
gorgeous! thanks 😃
Posted
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by midnightsun
@Boleyn and @Snorticus found this multi-chimp video ACP000dql2 and - although @Snorticus suggest Katie, I think that this is Flores again as it is the left hand that's injured and Katie does not have a new infant in May.
There is also a close interaction with a juvenile. We have seen her with a juvenile of similar size in April and it could be her older offspring.
Face view
Left hand - only the thumb seems to exist. This is more clearly seen in the video.
I also think that Blondie and her infant sit in the back.
Posted
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by Snorticus in response to midnightsun's comment.
@midnightsun I spoke too quickly 😃 Nice look at Flores back side too for future reference. Interesting, looks as if she blocks the juvenile from getting the next drink. A hierarchy thing maybe?
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to midnightsun's comment.
Hey Sandra, you are a real pro!!
I agree on Flores,
also, I agree on Blondie and her infant, and would even claim that the juvenile is Fanny.
And I think the guy behind could be GSMale09. The following pics belong to a match proposed by Laura (GSMale19 + guy in ACP000dp61 ) in https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP000273a (with which I agree):
and this is the guy behind Flores in ACP000dql2 :
it is best seen in the video, but their knees are light in all cases, nose crease and face wrinkles fit, white beard...
What do you guys think?
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Looks good to me: He's got that long hair and the popeye elbows like GSMale09 as well.
Maybe we could discuss these two videos ACP000dto2 / ACP000dtd6 here too since we got no response in the Yakini thread (page 4)? I still think this could also be GSMale09...
Thanks!
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
...all GSMale09 proposals gathered in his thread 😃
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
I think we see Flores and infant again in ACP000divi - older, gray female with a small infant (in the middle of the time frame, we've seen her before, here March 2013). I find specifically the left ear, the muzzle, brows, and balding very similar. I cannot see much of her left hand (that should be damaged, if match is true), but she keeps it in the air first and we know that she is putting some weight on it while walking. So, the damage is not excluded, but I can't really see something. She is too far away.
Here her face from a confirmed video in the similar position
The back view and swelling agrees too (for Flores, compare earlier postings by @midnightsun and @Snorticus)
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
In ACP000d384, I am a bit more sure about seeing the hand injury (right in the beginning) and in ACP000d382 at the end. Flores should be the gray female with the tiny infant that "runs" to the small tree when the vocalization starts.
Here on the right, standing.
Here in ACP000d382 more left with the infant. Left hand injury better seen in video.
She might be followed by Bohr. I speculate about the other males in this sequence being e.g. GSMale09 and Yakini, but I am not sure at all.
I am not sure who the female on the right in the second screenshot might be. She seems to have a small nick in the right ear and the infant seems to belong to her. She picks it up in ACP000d384. EDIT: Her left ear might also be damaged. That would indicate to look into GSFem17, but I am uncertain here with the black-and-white footage.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
ACP000divi : yes, I see Flores too. There is no left hand, and I think one can see it clear when compared with the right hand.
ACP000d382 / ACP000d384 : I agree on Flores and her infant, I see the hand injury too.
I am not sure about the others, Bohr might fit, but he walks too fast, so I am not sure. ...
I was thinking of the juvenile before Flores being Jamie, what do you think? 😕
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Yes, I agree on Flores in all three videos. Is this a scar she has in her upper left lip? If gives her a special and distinctive look.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
yes, I´ve noticed it too, but it seems that one can only see it clearly when she chews something 😕
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
It seems to me that in ACP000dnor (found by @Batfan), we do see Flores again with her tiny infant. Her left hand is damaged, she is very gray and looks older. Brows, ears, balding, and also the muzzle that looks a bit deformed (but I'm still not sure whether it is just a facial expression) agree on known traits. Again, another juvenile walks with her.
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
She does look very much like Flores!
Posted
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by PauDG scientist, moderator
Flores, I love the name!
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
Thanks Anja, that´s Flores.
I will go back to that juvenile, and see if she (?) is seen again in the other videos of Flores.
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
ACP000dnr6 - this might be Flores with her small infant. Again seen with a juvenile as well.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
yes, I agree that these are Flores and GSInf14. I have to go through the Flores videos to check this juvenile...
Posted
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by Snorticus
Some more Flores & tiny baby at the water hole sequence on 2-05-13 at 14:29
ACP000dobb - ACP000dobf - ACP000dobh
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.
thank you!!
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
ACP000dk54 - We do see Layla and family here 2 minutes before. The face of the female is not well see, but I am pretty sure that it is not Layla coming back, so considering balding, brows, less white beard, a bit rounder forehead, gray back and legs, and the small infant, I think that we see Flores here.
But her hand is not seen. Any thoughts?
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
I agree with you. If one adjusts a bit the brightness and contrast of the screen, one can barely see that there´s something weird in the left hand of the female in ACP000dk54 (Flores misses some left fingers). Also, Flores has a funny expression in her face, particularly the left side of her upper lip: it looks like she could have a vertical crease of something that makes her look like she bites her lip a bit....this I see in ACP000dk54 too. Look at their upper lips in:
Flores in ACP000dnor :
ACP000dk54 (best seen in video) :
Thanks Anja!!
(I have merged your post into Flores thread 😃 )
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
I wanted to mention something because I thought a lot about the question that we often see Flores in association with Layla and so also with Jana and how we can separate Jana from Fowey and I think we need to look into the videos again.
In ACP000dnor, the accompanying juvenile looks quite big. Compare with ACP000d37y and ACP000dql2, the juvenile here has almost her shoulder height (2/3 of adult size?)
My thinking at the moment is that ACP000dql2 is rather Fanny (Blondie follows). Also because of the roughness in ACP000dql2. For ACP000d37y, it could be Fanny, too, compare for instance ACP000dsb3. But we do not see Blondie or Layla (but other chimps are there and run away to the other side.)
And that Flores' older juvenile might actually be TChalla. It bugs me a bit where he belongs and as an older male juvenile (and mom having a newborn) it is easier to see that he is not always with her. TChalla's size is comparable to Jamie, not Jana. And I think that might fit the videos better.
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
In addition, when "Fowey" leaves after the longer scene in ACP000dp1b (and before) in the next clip is Blondie and infant (compare face, brows, and swelling) swelling. When Flores crosses before, there is no real interaction.
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
Compare also in this sequence, ACP000dlro / ACP000dlrp / ACP000dlrr / ACP000dlrt - I think I already proposed some of these chimps, but just realized that I made an mistake in my thinking which might help with above issue.
ACP000dlro - gray-backed female with small infant at the water. I always thought that might rather be Flores, but her hand is OK and the swelling says: Layla. GSInf17 jumps from Cleo's back who is then drinking. Jana arrives, Layla leaves.
ACP000dlrp - Cleo leaves, GSInf17 goes with her. Jamie arrives. Good to compare Jana's and Jamie's size and with that also the videos above. (Fanny - here not seen - should have rather Jana's size.)
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
Thanks Anja for this brainstorm.
I´m coming back to this shortly...looks interesting 😃
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
so let me put it this way:
- ACP000d37y : the first juvenile walking is not Fowey but Fanny (and Blondie should have walked away already, as we don´t see her in the whole sequence).
Also, that TChalla and Fowey are actually the same juvenile, which will mean that the juvenile that follows Fowey (or Fanny as you propose) in ACP000d37y is actually Fowey (Fowey-TChalla). So according to your thoughts, in this clip we would be seing: Fanny followed by Fowey-TChalla instead of Fowey followed by TChalla.
Left, TChalla, right Fowey. You sugest: left Fowey-TChalla, right Fanny:
correct?
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
- ACP000dql2 : This juvenile is not Fowey but Fanny :
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
- ACP000dp1b : again, not Fowey but Fanny:
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
- ACP000dlro / ACP000dlrp / ACP000dlrr / ACP000dlrt series:
left: Layla at the watter hole, Cleo behind. Center: Layla and Cleo. Right: GSInf17 on the very left, Jana chewing, Layla leaving and Cleo at the water hole:
left: still Jana watching Cleo at the water hole (GSInf17 on the left), right: Jamie coming in, and GSInf17 beside her.
left: Jamie and GSInf17 leaving. Right, Jamie
left and right: Jamie
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
Am I correct?
Posted
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by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.
For the last sequence (Layla/Cleo): you mixed Jana and Jamie. Jamie is the bigger, clearly female juvenile. Jana is smaller. Jamie is the one with the sponge.
The rest agrees with my "brainstorm". 😃
Thanks!
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
ups! fixed 😃
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
ACP000d0xg - this might be Flores. The only other option would be Layla (according to family composition), but I think her back and swelling look different. I am still confused about that Fowey thing.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator
I vote for Flores instead of Layla. Layla has a smaller grey part in her back, and as you say, her swelling looks different. I would say Flores and Fowey,
thoughts?
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Sorry I can't tell. I thought Flores hair looks more shaggy and her legs don't seem bright enough when I compare with video ACP000dql2. Maybe again the light?
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
hm...if you adjust the brightness of your display in ACP000d0xg you will see clearly light legs. I am pretty sure it´s a light issue, what do you think?
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.
Brightness adjusted, video reviewed, opinion changed. It's Flores all right! 😄
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
LOL!!!
this is what I call "Teamarbeit" 😄
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
ACP000dx8d - this should be Flores with her infant and before in ACP000dx8c her dark-nosed juvenile Fowey.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
yes, thanks.
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
@GoatyGoats found this new video ACP000dexq and it looks to me like Flores, her infant, and Fowey. Traits like damaged left hand, gray back, small swelling, protruded brows, as well as family composition fit.
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
yesss, agreed.
Flores, GSInf14 and Fowey 😃
thanks Anja
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
Hi @NuriaM, I had a look again at Flores in different videos, and I think she really has at least a big scar on the left side of her muzzle, but it might even be a cleft lip (I think it is). I think it would be good to update her description. It's not only a "funny expression". It's well visible in several videos were her face is relaxed.
See here when she is definitely not feeding:
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
done 😃
Posted
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by AnLand moderator
The female with the small ventral infant in ACP000d0sd and ACP000d0sf should be Flores (brows, balding, gray legs ...)
Posted
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by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.
yes, there´s something in her upper lip too, like Flores. Thanks.
Posted
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by HeikeW
ACP000dqdl Fanny?.......................................................................... ACP000dpyh .................................................. ACP000dp8u Fowey
Here is another question where I´m not sure wether it is sorted out already: Fowey or Fanny. Their backs seem to look quite similar. In this thread Nuria proposes Fanny for the left and the right juvenile. The right one is tagged as Fowey, the left one is proposed as Fanny in the Blondie and Fanny thread.
ACP000dpyh : This juvenile is proposed as Fowey by Anja in the Dining Log thread.
Perhaps somebody who knows more than I can comment this? 😛
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.
More detective work 😃
That's how I see it: ACP000dqdl and ACP000dpyh = Fanny
She is a bit smaller than Fowey. Her back characteristic is the white (hairless?) stripe that streches about 5 cm up her back. This can be seen in both of the above videos and in ACP000dqss and ACP000dpr1 where Fanny is confirmed. The second shows also the same side view of her face like video ACP000dqdl.
ACP000dp8u = Fowey
The clip was correctly tagged with Fowey by Nuria (whatever is written in a thread...) His tuft is round and looks like a wind wheel, compare to confirmed Fowey in ACP000d0xj and ACP000dp1b.
Posted
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by HeikeW
I found this:
ACP000dpyh .......................................................... ACP000dqdl Fanny proposed .............................. ACP000dn4f Fowey
They might all have this bald hollow of the knee, but this does look similar doesn´t it?. I didn´t find a verified image of Fowey in the same position but on the right we have his bottom from the same day.. The video in the middle shows a face view and that is ,I think, why he´s proposed to be Fanny. I don´t dare a vote though.
(When I searched Fowey´s back, I found that the dining log scene is still untagged.) 😃
Posted
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by AnLand moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.
Based on these images I would agree: ACP000dpyh = ACP000dqdl (Fanny proposed) // ACP000dn4f is Fowey
For the tagging let's wait for the science team taking over from Nuria. They might need to decide how to work from here and keep everything together.
Posted
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by HeikeW
OK, while waiting I load my "left ear and profile" images, only to close my detective work and deliver what I found.
Fowey ........................................................................................................................................................ Fanny
ACP000dql2 ............................................................................................................................................... ACP000dpr1
ACP000doxj .................................................................. ACP000dqdl .................................................... ACP000dsdf
ACP000czib ................................................................................................................................................ ACP000dskq
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Great, that is definitely Fanny in the middle. Same funky ear and flat profile!
Posted
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by Buzharevski scientist, moderator
I agree on the Fanny proposal. I'll insert the changes 😃
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Antonio, pls. look here!
It took me a while but now I think I figured it out:
Starting with ACP000dqsq there are two chimps behind Flores. One is still Yakini (see suggested in Yakini thread) and a juvenile as seen in ACP000dqss. Blondie leaves, GSInf13 (a girl I think) enters her back but drops again just behind Flores. We can see her face at the very end in the upper left corner. The juvenile sitting behind Flores is most likely Fowey since he starts to move and leaves with her when she does in ACP000dqst. We can shortly see his profile and white tuft. GSInf13 lingers at the tree and seems to be a bit puzzled that all the chimps left. She goes around the bushes and looks back at the waterhole in ACP000dqsu and takes off hesitantly direction where the others went. Blondie didn't seem to notice that she disembarked.
At the end a big grey backed chimp leaves the place of which I think is Yakini as posted in his thread. It's all the same sequence so it still must be him since this minute here starts immediately after ACP000dqkx ACP000dqky ACP000dql0 ACP000dql2.
Flores leaving with juvenile (back) and GSInf13 next to the tree:
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
@AnLand and I suggest Flores and GSInf14 in ACP000dcit and ACP000dciu
Posted
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by HeikeW
For the clay - hole scene: wow GSInf13 disembarking! 😮 I´m not sure about Yakini though. When Blondie passes behind Flores in ACP000dqss we can see that he is no longer there. We cannot really know how many Panda - bottoms might be around? All others I agree. 😃 I first thought Fanny might be leaving with Flores, having surrounded the tree. But we still see his hand in ACP000dqst and he is seen there alone in the next minute. ACP000dqdl..
Posted
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by lauraklynn moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
I agree with Flores as well
Posted
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by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
I'm down with Flores too
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
One more for Antonio: please have a look at the clay hole scene again, some posts up, post is marked for you.
We still need confirmation for GSInf13 and Fowey. I've written down how I see it happening and hope you'll agree. Thanks!
Posted
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by MimiA scientist, moderator
HI Heidi
Here with Antonio 😃
Just want to make sure we understand the question
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is it GSInf13 that needs confirmation in ACP000dqsq? - yes we agree its GSInf13 riding Blondie
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is it Fowey at the very front of the same video? - yes we agree on Fowey
did we get it right?
thanks!
mPosted
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by Boleyn moderator in response to MimiA's comment.
Hi Mimi, Antonio!
not quite, sorry, it's a difficult sequence 😛 and it took me a while to figure it out.
- is it GSInf13 that needs confirmation in ACP000dqsq? - yes we agree its GSInf13 riding Blondie
--> no, GSInf13 is already confirmed in this clip, she needs confirmation later in the last 2 clips of this minute.
- is it Fowey at the very front of the same video? - yes we agree on Fowey
--> no, it's not Fowey, this is Fanny already confirmed. Fowey is assumed to be the juvenile behind Flores at the tree.
We need confirmation for chimps in ACP000dqsq ACP000dqss ACP000dqst and ACP000dqsu, but to understand who and why I'll copy/paste the entire story here again so you can check it clip by clip. I also add the names without tags in the video comments:
Starting with ACP000dqsq there are one or two chimps behind Flores. One (not really seen here) is still Yakini (compare previous sequence ACP000dqkx ACP000dqky ACP000dql0 ACP000dql2 but not relevant here) Relevant is a juvenile as seen in ACP000dqss. Blondie leaves, GSInf13 (a girl I think) enters her back but drops again just behind Flores. We can see her face at the very end in the upper left corner. The juvenile sitting behind Flores is most likely Fowey since he starts to move and leaves with her when she does in ACP000dqst. We can shortly see his profile and white tuft. GSInf13 lingers at the tree and seems to be a bit puzzled that all the chimps left. She goes around the bushes and looks back at the waterhole in ACP000dqsu and takes off hesitantly in the direction where the others went. Blondie didn't seem to notice that she disembarked.
Flores leaving with juvenile (back) and GSInf13 next to the tree:
If it's not clear, please ask! Thanks!!!
Posted
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by MimiA scientist, moderator
Ok i get it now, thanks! and yes I would confirm GSInf13 in the relevant clips but Fowey I only agree with in ACP000dqst (just can't see him otherwise in my opinion)
Posted
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by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.
Tnx for the explanation Heidi! So I tagged GSInf13 and Fowey in ACP000dqst and GSInf13 in ACP000dqsu. I didn't tag GSInf13 in ACP000dqsq and ACP000dqss because it was tagged already.
Posted
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by Boleyn moderator
Great, thanks Antonio.
Edit: Mimi, sorry I haven't seen your post before. I tagged Fowey in ACP000dqss as well because we see him taking off with Flores right at the end. ACP000dqst is the immediate continuation of ACP000dqss.
Glad this is finally sorted out 😛
Posted