Chimp & See Talk

Cleo: Female with infant

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This is a bit of a guess, but I am looking since some days in to the other female from Layla's latest find: ACP000dkx7 and ACP000dkxa: she has a small swelling, a bit of a gray back, some baldness, a longish face, flat and broad nostrils, and seems to have a bent in her left ear (or some damage). An infant seems to belong to her that it's not too small anymore, e.g. bigger than Vala's and Siena's.

    enter image description here

    and with the infant (a girl?)

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    And I think I found her again in ACP000dts5 / ACP000dts7 / ACP000dts8

    enter image description here

    and with the infant (also a girl?)

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    The longish face looks a bit like Katie's, but Katie does not have such a big infant (and is seen here at the same day like the second sequence, November 15th) and the new female's right hand is fine.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I also think, ACP000drp3 could be them too (see here also the comments that this cannot be Vala ...) The ear is a bit better seen, but unfortunately the other traits are difficult to assess.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Some more ideas about this female because @Corcaroli found this ACP000drn9 video and I see similarities. ACP000drdt (on the log, her infant in front of the log), ACP000drdv, ACP000ds0c (leaving with her infant) - all the same day. Seeing this, I think we might need to re-evaluate ACP000dkx7 and ACP000dkxa (not Layla, that's clear), but Jamie. There is often a light-faced juvenile with this new female. He/she might be her older offspring, which would explain why "Jamie" in ACP000dkx7 is already present when Layla arrives. Juveniles are often not really distinquishable, or as he/she is not this small anymore it ventures out.

    I am also thinking about this sweet family: ACP000dmo0 / ACP000dmo1 / ACP000dmo3 (then her older offspring would be a girl)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks Anja for this compilation! I am quite sure that you are right about this 3 member family. Also, I think that the juvenile in ACP000dkx7 and ACP000dkxa is not Jamie, but the one belonging to this new female.

    Here´s what I will do: I am giving a temp. ID to the tree chimps in each series so that we can discuss it more easily:

    ACP000dkx7 / ACP000dkxa : #GSFem17 , #GSInf17 , #GSJuv08

    ACP000dts5 / ACP000dts7 / ACP000dts8 : #GSFem17b , #GSInf17b , #GSJuv08b

    ACP000drp3 : #GSFem17c , #GSInf17c

    ACP000drdt / ACP000drdv / ACP000drn9 / ACP000ds0c : #GSFem17d , #GSInf17d , #GSJuv08d

    ACP000dmo0 / ACP000dmo1 / ACP000dmo3 : #GSFem17e , #GSInf17e , #GSJuv08e

    To me the traits fit, as well as the sizes and context. The juvenile has like a darker mask that goes down to his nose:

    GSJuv08 in ACP000dkxa :

    enter image description here

    GSJuv08d in ACP000drdt :

    enter image description here

    GSJuv08e in ACP000dmo0 :

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    And the female´s bald patch is sort of lineal:

    GSFem17b in ACP000dts5 :

    enter image description here

    GSFem17c in ACP000drp3 :

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    As we are discussing ACP000d382 again, I am thinking that the female on the right with the bigger infant next to her belongs to the 17'ies females 😃 The brows, balding, left ear seem to fit. Behind her (before Flores) her older juvenile that we also already discussed. I think the temp IDs are GSJuv08xx

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I still agree on this long match with the 17'ies females and 08s juveniles. I really encourage you guys to weigh in here 😃

    Also, this last video that you Anja mention...traits fit to me.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I guess I missed this thread before but instead asked me where all the different 17-temp-IDs came from 😛

    First I had some problems with the face view of the female in ACP000dts5 / ACP000dts7 / ACP000dts8 but now I can agree to all of them.

    Also when suggesting Yakini in clip ACP000d382 I was thinking about this female shown above and her resemblance to the 17 females. Traits and context fit. So ok with me 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Looked at the 17s and agree that this looks like the same gal with the two kids.

    Left ear with the top dented looks like the top got possibly sheared off as it looks so much lower than the nicely curved right ear which sticks out and sticks up higher on her head. What a nice "part" she has down the center of her head.

    The juvenile with the dark smudge under the nose looks like a girl maybe?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    hmm, we agreed on male for the juvenile. I can see no labia in ACP000dkxa

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Awesome! so we have a great match, soooo cool!!

    I need two namers, one for the GSFem17, 17b, 17c, 17d, 17e , and one for GSJuv08, 08b, 08d, 08e.

    MingMing found GSFem17 & co. in ACP000dkx7 and Corcaroli found GSFem17b family in ACP000dt40

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to NuriaM's comment.

    ACP000dmo1 - #GSJuv08e - female labia here? Still thinking this juvenile is female, could you check this, Nuria?

    enter image description here

    ACP000dt41 - #GSJuv08b - also here?

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    oh, I think you are right. I was expecting bigger labia for her size, but I guess I was wrong. Let me ask others...

    Thanks for checking it!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Maureen says:

    Hi Nuria,
    It looks like a female to me.

    sorry for the confusion, juveniles sex is very often hard to tell apart 😒

    great job Dawna!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    We still should be careful with naming the juvenile as I said here in the beginning and in Layla's thread https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP0001xar this might be the same individual that we've first seen with Layla (and named Jamie) and/or we need to find out whether this is one or two individuals. That's why we discussed the juvenile's sex in the first place (here on page one and in Layla's thread). Are we sure that there are two individuals and which one is Jamie and which not?

    The video in question is meanwhile also classified: ACP000d0ms

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Here is another part to this problem:

    Layla and GSFem17 are identified in ACP000dkx7 / ACP000dkxa with their respective infants, a small juvenile (Jana) and a big lightfaced one that we once thought belongs to Layla and named Jamie and then thought belongs to GSFem17 and named GSJuv08. They are here at 16.25 (March 10th) , Layla crosses. In ACP000dkxd (unclassified), also GSFem17 leaves.

    At 16.26, March 10th, Layla is already at the nearby camera (we already know these cameras are very close) in ACP000dlro drinking holding her infant. GSFem17 is there too, her big infant jumping from her back. Jana arrives and stays on the high ground, GSInf25 down at the water. Layla leaves. ACP000dlrp GSFem17 leaves, GSInf25 runs after her. A big lightfaced juvenile (female as seen in ACP000dlrr) arrives. Jana runs after the adult females and the juvenile – that might be Jamie or GSJuv08 or the same as there is only one – drinks with a sponge.

    I already discussed this in Layla’s thread on page 5. It is not clear to me that we have indeed two juveniles here. In the clear situations with Layla and GSFem17, it looks as if we have only one big female juvenile. And we named that already Jamie.

    And the female in ACP000d0ms might well be GSFem17 with GSInf25 and Jamie in tow.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    More – on November 7th, when we first identified Jamie (with Jana and Layla) in ACP000cxdo etc. There is three minutes before in ACP000cx6q etc. a dark female with small swelling and slightly gray back – and a big infant – followed by a female older juvenile. The juvenile stays sitting far from the camera, but might get closer to it three minutes later when Jana and Layla (here still without her infant) arrives. We cannot exclude that this is not the same big juvenile and that she followed the female before her.

    I don’t want to match the other female necessarily to GSFem17, but ask to be careful with GSJuv08 and Jamie. I do not see a definite proof that we have indeed two juveniles. I can’t see much of the juvenile’s face, but it seems to be lighter.

    (You can also compare this to the situation on the same day some hours earlier in ACP000cwsv / ACP000cwsx / ACP000cwsz / ACP000cxt1 – big infant, white beard: probably Akilah, followed some minutes later by another female juvenile in ACP000cwry that might be GSJuv06 and looks different (body build and swelling) to the one discussed above, I think.)

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Another scene of interest would be on June 9th: a female with a slightly gray back, small neat swelling, and big infant, followed by Katie and then a big female juvenile: ACP000dn55 / ACP000dn56 / ACP000dn58 and ACP000dn26. There are some face views of the big juvenile. The unclassified ACP000dn27 shows that it is indeed GSFem17 (and not Akilah). Time stamp is wrong according to spreadsheet. It’s only shortly after 2 p.m.
    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Some minutes before, we see a big female juvenile drinking at the other camera: ACP000dqf4 and ACP000dqf6. It might be the same juvenile GSJuv08, although we don’t have a face view.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    So is the question the family composition:

    • Does Layla have an infant & 2 juveniles as we 1st assumed

    • Do Fem 17s have an infant & 1 juvenile

    • Are we seeing one of Layla's juveniles with Fem 17

    Addendum - which I think is the answer.
    There are only 2 juveniles - 1 belongs to each female and Jamie is the same chimp as GSJuv08 and belongs to the Fem 17's

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    These are relevant questions, but most of all it's here: who is Jamie and can we give easily a name to a second juvenile?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Sorting the Jamie question. After having a look, I agree with Anja that Jamie is GSJuv08, GSFem17's juvenile

    ACP000drox - ACP000droz - ACP000drp1 - ACP000drp3 - (Some unclassified)

    Here we see Vala & her infant arrive at the tree. A juvenile follows, then GSFem17c with her infant.

    The previous minute clip shows only the two males at the tree - Fouts confirmed & Bohr - Bohr in ACP000drp1 waves the juvenile off. No sign of Layla being present.

    Vala has no juvenile so this juvenile would seem to be with GSFem17c which would be GSJuv08 /Jamie. Light face & size fit also.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Sorting the Jamie question.

    ACP000d0mw - Anja referred to this in the Layla thread: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000v/discussions/DCP0001xar

    On 21 Feb. 2013 - If we look at the whole sequence for context I think we see only two juveniles - one for each female. Jamie and Jana.

    ACP000d0ms - GSFem17 & her big light faced infant & her juvenile, GSJuv08 /Jamie.

    enter image description here

    ACP000d0mu - 15sec later I think we see Layla with her small infant

    enter image description here

    ACP000d0mw - Following is Jana as tagged

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    More Jamie sorting.

    ACP000dlro - ACP000dlrp - ACP000dlrr - ACP000dlrt -

    as Anja posits:

    Layla - ACP000dlro is drinking & holding her tiny infant.

    GSFem17 - waits, her big infant GSInf17 jumps from her back.

    Jana - arrives and stays on the high ground.

    Layla - leaves.

    GSFem17 - leaves,

    GSInf17 - runs to greet arriving sibling GSJuv08 /Jamie & then off in the direction of GSFem17.

    The big light faced juvenile that arrives is GSJuv08 /Jamie. If there actually were 3 juveniles we should probably be seeing them during this sequence with both mothers present.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Thanks ladies for this amazing job. And sorry that I still didn´t make it to check to the Jamie/Jana/Juv08 case.

    After checking the juveniles, I agree that Jamie is Juv08:

    juv08 in ACP000dkxa :

    enter image description here

    and Jamie in ACP000cxds

    enter image description here

    I see that their face traits, especially the eyes dark mask, fit completely.

    So we actually have two families that mix with one another constantly:

    1. Layla + her very small infant GSInf25 + medium-sized female juvenile Jana
    2. GSFem17 + big female infant GSInf17 + big female juvenile Jamie

    ...correct?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Yes, but I am still not sure whether Jana is female. I would still think male (no labia seen, only a white tuft), but it's not easy.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks for summarizing that clearly, @NuriaM

    1. Layla + her very small infant GSInf25 + medium-sized (female?) juvenile Jana

    2. GSFem17 + big female infant GSInf17 + big female juvenile Jamie

    Leaning towards male for Jana, but we so far don't have great views to be certain.

    ACP000d5a1

    enter image description here

    ACP000d0mw

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    hmmm, ok, then I will leave Jana "unclear" 😃

    Thanks!!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Can't we ask Maureen? The views aren't actually that bad, maybe she can say something about the sex of the juvenile?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    yes, I have already asked her...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    @Corcaroli would like me to post the name that he´s decided for GSFem17(...). He would like to call her Cleo 😃

    Thanks Dick for this beautiful name!!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    about Jana´s sex, Maureen wrote:

    I wasn't completely sure but I asked another chimp person here and we
    agreed on female (best confirmed in ACP000d0mw). Hope it helps!

    so I keep "female" for Jana 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Can I ask what you see there? I am having trouble to see more than just a white anal tuft, especially in comparison with ACP000d5a1. Or do you think, what we see is not the tuft at all, but skin (as e.g., with Kamala at the Aged Violet site)?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    We all have trouble to tell juvenile´s sex apart, as most of the times it´s not that clear at all. That´s why it´s necessary to ask others to have more opinions.

    In ACP000d0mw I do see labia (at sec, 09 - 11 more or less). I don´t see much of a tuft, but skin...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    This is Jana in ACP000d0mw

    enter image description here

    and this is GSJuv01 in ACP000da71 . Here I see an obvious tuft :

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    In ACP000dtfh, we do see Cleo, her infant, and Jamie again. Also a good comparison for the still open ACP000d382.

    The other female seems to be the same as in for instance ACP000dt90. I can't find her. Did she already get a temp ID (or a name)?

    Jamie probably also in ACP000dtse / ACP000dtsh and ACP000dtff.

    Cleo on the left

    enter image description here

    Her infant on her back and Jamie (female juvenile) feeding on the tree

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ACP000dtfh : agreed, Cleo (...)

    ACP000d382 : that´s Cleo´s family too. I still believe that the male is Yakini.

    ACP000dt90 (...): new female, GSFem32 & GSInf32 . I think you are right about her in ACP000dtff (...)

    ACP000dtse / ACP000dtsh and ACP000dtff :yes, Jamie

    Thanks!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    ...
    Quote Nuria: ACP000d382 : that´s Cleo´s family too. I still believe that the male is Yakini. --> me too!

    Quote Nuria : ACP000dt90 (...): new female, GSFem32 & GSInf32 . I think you are right about her in ACP000dtff (...) --> I think the one in ACP000dtff might be GSFem12

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dxby / ACP000dxbz - this video is not very good, but family composition, face views of juvenile and infant, profile body view and body build of the female suggest to me Cleo, her infant, and Jamie.

    I also wanted to mention that I think we need to look into ACP000dx0o again. I still think that this is Layla and her infant. But we now know that Jamie does not belong to her and we assumed here a family context. The juvenile might also be the new male juvenile ... balding and forehead would be consistent and maybe in the direct comparison to Jamie, we might be able to find something to distinguish them. I think, we can exclude Aurora and Loika because of their much darker face coloration.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dxcm - OK, this is very dark, but traits and family composition are consistent with Cleo & Co. Her infant rides that way in ACP000dtfh as well.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    I actually think that GSFem12 and GSFem32 are very similar... could they be the same one?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Thanks Anja, I agree on ACP000dxby / ACP000dxbz and ACP000dxcm

    as for ACP000dx0o , don´t you think that the juvenile could be Jana?

    Posted

  • Corcaroli by Corcaroli

    I believe this is the female Nuria asked me to name. The name I selected is Cleo. Is this the chimp in question?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, indeed, that's Cleo. I love that name. I have a friend, we call Cleo (although that's not her real name.)

    Posted

  • Corcaroli by Corcaroli

    My pleasure. It's very nice working with all of you.

    Regards, Dick

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000doni - might be Cleo & family, or? Very fast, but traits and family composition fits.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    yes, I see Cleo´s bent left ear in ACP000doni and Jamie´s face in ACP000donm

    thanks!

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000dsuj
    ACP000dsuk
    ACP000dsul
    ACP000dsum
    ACP000dt1m
    ACP000dt1n
    ACP000dt1o
    ACP000dt1p

    This should be all Cleo with infant and later Jamie. I wrote in the comments, but did not tag now.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    yesss....

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    ACP000ds7f / ACP000ds7g / ACP000ds7h - I think Cleo, Jamie and her infant. Compare for the female's back / rear ACP000dsjl. Jamie's face view and size of infant fit, too. (Akilah with two light-faced offsprings has a considerably bigger swelling.)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I agree:

    ACP000ds7f :

    enter image description here

    Cleo in ACP000dsjl :

    enter image description here

    thanks 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    They have already been suggested here and in the Layla thread. Just a little reminder to not forget this lovely bunch of females and jueveniles including our sponge girl in ACP000dlro ACP000dlrp ACP000dlrr and ACP000dlrt Thanks! 😃

    Edit: this should actually read the Flores thread page 4, not Layla thread. @AnLand suggested Layla for the first female with ventral infant, and Cleo for the second one coming to the water hole along with Jana and GSInf17 Cleos daugther.

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here

    ACP000dlrp ............................................................. Cleo ACP000dkx7 GSInf17........................................ ACP000dlro

    Brows, muzzle shape, ears sticking wide out. Is this Cleo´s infant as Anja proposed? I think yes 😃

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here

    ACP000dlro There is this little light spot above the little swelling, which I think is also seen above 😮)

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    enter image description here

    ACP000dlro ....................................... ACP000dts5 Cleo ............................ ACP000dtfh Cleo ............................. ACP000drp3 Cleo

    More serious: her face isn´t too clearly visible, but we see the linear balding and convincing in my opinion: the proportions. She has a round head with a broad forehead and a long face.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Great, Heike, thanks a lot.
    I edited my post above but I rather write it here again:

    The post about this sequence was actually in the Flores thread page 4, not Layla thread and more or less solved and agreed. @AnLand suggested Layla for the first female with ventral infant, and Cleo for the second one coming to the water hole along with Jana and GSInf17 Cleos daugther. Then Nuria made a great posting with all the different chimps but somehow the videos got not tagged and I didn't notice it during review. I will tag them according to Nuria's posting with the suggested change by Anja.

    Heike, I hope you're not angry with us and that this was a good exercise for you anyways! Sorry!

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    😄 No worries, I had found all the discussions and wasn´t sure wether it was finished with all those different threads. This was learning for me and a new reminder for this lovely family scene at the water hole. 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Actually there might be more discussions with open posts/suggestions. Whenever you stumble over such open threads it would be great if you could add a little post to bring it to our attention. Thanks a lot for your help!!

    Posted

  • HeikeW by HeikeW

    I´ll do my best 😃

    enter image description here

    ACP000dn55 Jamie ......................................................................................... ACP000dqf4

    This juvenile in ACP000dqf4 and ACP000dqf6 suggested as Jamie in this thread by Anja is still open. I agree 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Yes, looks good to me too! Jamie it is. Thanks!

    Posted

  • Buzharevski by Buzharevski scientist, moderator in response to HeikeW's comment.

    Those white spots on the back say Jamie to me too 😃

    Posted