Chimp & See Talk

**Deka, Dimi, and others

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I am not entirely sure who Deka is, but in the recently tagged video we see a male juvenile, while Deka is supposed to be female. She is also part of the same longer sequence and the back view just does not fit.

    ACP00025kq and ACP00025kr – should be a male juvenile, but no testicles seen

    enter image description here

    Deka from ACP00025lz – is a female juvenile

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    We have two other older male juveniles identified at this site: Dimi and Baloo

    Dimi is in the same sequence in ACP00025ly – but does have already visible testicles and as he sees the camera here (this is 20 minutes earlier), the camera reaction of the juvenile in ACP00025kr does not make sense if this would be Dimi.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Baloo has been identified as far as I understand because of his peculiar testicles, so it’s not him either.

    Here a screenshot from the juvenile in ACP00025kq and ACP00025kr with the camera reaction

    enter image description here

    CSJuv09 seems to be male, but no visible testicles.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    After giving this issue some more thought, I would say that we have here two males: an older juvenile in ACP00025kq and ACP00025kr and an adolescent (Dimi) in ACP00025ly. Dimi is considerably bigger, has visible testicles, and both his ears are slightly folded back in the upper part. His brows are rounded, but not as much in the smaller juvenile, who has also bulkier brows. The ear bridge on the right ear of the new juvenile is also slightly folded, but only on this side and the ears are still perfectly rounded.

    While looking into the videos tagged with Dimi, I would sort in the following way.

    Dimi: ACP00025ly, ACP00026gx, ACP00027cy / ACP00027cz, ACP00025nc, ACP00027yk, ACP0002av7 / ACP0002av8, ACP00027yh / ACP00027yi / ACP00027yj

    The new (smaller) juvenile might be: ACP00024y1 / ACP00024y2 and in ACP00024ru / ACP00024rv if indeed associated with that female. Here tagged as Elisa, but I wrote about the problematic match elsewhere. ACP0002aur. As CSJuv09 is also associated with Elisa (e.g., ACP00021lt same time frame), he is also male and has the same body size and build, that might be an idea.

    CSJuv09: https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/collections/CCPL00007o

    Here confirmed as Dimi, but the older juvenile (not the adolescent in my opinion)

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    I am not sure who the younger one in ACP0002jmu is, might even be female, and – as said before – the older chimp is not Elisa (or the other ones in the tag group are not Elisa). There is no baby around and according to the Known chimps list Elisa is associated with Elian, Eddy, and Dimi (who is not Dimi).

    This new juvenile must not be the one associated with "Elisa", but nevertheless, also Dimi's tag group consists of two individuals, a bigger and a smaller juvenile/adolescent.

    Just my ideas. I don't know if that helps in anyway. And, of course, I might be wrong.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks Anja!

    I agree that these two juvs. are not Deka for the reasons you mentioned above: ACP00025kq and ACP00025kr .

    We are looking for a male juvenile, and the only cadidates in the list are:

    Abile: but it´s too small, wouldn´t fit.

    Dimi: too big (testes descendent): I´m going back to the Dimi issue shortly...

    Baloo: idem

    Juv09: I think this could be a reasonable match, or at least something to think about.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    as for Dimi, I have had my thoughts about his tag group.

    I think you are right, these two videos tagged as Dimi might not fit: ACP00024y2 and ACP00024y3 (you meant these when you wrote ACP00024y1 and ACP00024y2 , right?).

    I think we are talking about Dimi and CSJuv09 here.

    This is how I see it:

    Dimi:

    ACP00025ly, ACP00026gx, ACP00027cy / ACP00027cz, ACP00025nc, ACP00027yk, ACP0002av7 / ACP0002av8, ACP00027yh / ACP00027yi / ACP00027yj : all tagged as Dimi, so this group would stay as it is.

    CSJuv09:

    ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr: tagged as Deka

    ACP00024y2 / ACP00024y3 , ACP0002aur : tagged as Dimi

    ACP00024ru / ACP00024rv , not tagged (#needCID)

    ACP00021lt / ACP00021lw / ACP00021lz / ACP00021m0 / ACP00021m3 / ACP00021m5 : tagged as CSJuv09.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    jiust one more thing; what do you think that happened in this video? ACP00027m9

    we have 2 chimps and 3 IDs; I guess Abile and Eddy are the right ones as the sizes would fit 😕

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I support the @AnLand ´s suggestion; I think all the juvs I listed above ( ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr , ACP00024y2 / ACP00024y3 , ACP0002aur ,
    ACP00024ru / ACP00024rv , ACP00021lt / ACP00021lw / ACP00021lz / ACP00021m0 / ACP00021m3 / ACP00021m5 ). are very likely to be CSJuv09:

    In chronological order:

    enter image description here
    body build, face color, straight brows, vertical line along his head to the center of the browline...even the rears look very similar.

    Any thoughts?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    it would be sooooo cool if someone could weigh in here 😄

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Hi Nuria, so then let me try 😃

    I agree that ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr tagged as Deka is not Deka. It's a male juvenile as we can see from his backside (pics above from @AnLand)

    Now to CSJuv09 in ACP00021lt Unfortunately we don't have any front or even face shot from Juv09 in his taggroup. He's got a tempID anyway but I think it's quite hard to match him to any of the chimps here. From size I just can tell he's bigger than Eddy, the second juvenile in the same video following Elisa.

    ACP00024y3 has been wrongly tagged as Dimi. In fact I think this must be Eddy, following his mum Elisa in ACP00024y2. In December 2013. Dimi is certainly much bigger than this chimp here. His testicles were already well seen one year earlier in Dec. 2012

    enter image description here

    The same goes for ACP00025kq and ACP00025kr. So I agree with @AnLand on those 4 videos beeing Elisas son IF it really always is Elisa. You both took some efforts to sort this out in the thread mentionned by @AnLand above but somehow I'm not sure if there's an agreement yet?

    To make a conclusion here: I have no idea who the chimp in ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr could be. To say it's Juv09 for me would be a mere assumption. And I cannot say it's Eddy either because 1) of his looks: Eddy's right ear sticks quite close to his head while the right ear of ACP00025kq sticks out and his brows are more bent than Eddy's. And 2) because Elisa is nowhere to be seen in this entire seqence according to the spreadsheet.

    Did I add to the confusion? Sorry! 😉

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks @Boleyn for your help! Yes, the Elisa and Shani issue is still pending.

    I think you are right about Juv09...althought he was given a tempID, I think seing only his rear is not enought at least in this case. So maybe it´s not a good idea to use him as a matching reference.

    ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr: I removed the #Deka hashtag and will give him a tempID.

    ACP00024y2 / ACP00024y3 : I removed the #Dimi hashtag I will give new ID

    What do you think about ACP0002aur? : tagged as Dimi, but actually smaller 😕

    ...more soon 😃

    thanks!!!!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Hi Nuria, ACP0002aur is tagged as Dimi. I'm not sure if the size fits with Dimi. I think he's male, but that's about all I can say so far. When I compare him to the juvenile from ACP00025kr I must say they do have similarites. Bushy brown, mask and face color look the same. The juvenile from ACP0002aur looks a bit bigger though but in the three months in between he could have grown a little, but that much? And he doesn't seem to fear the camera now as he did in ACP00025kr. So hard to tell... I think we really need to sort out that Elisa thing first.

    Juvenile from ACP0002aur

    enter image description here

    Juvenile from ACP00025kr

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Thanks again!

    I will go back to the Shani/Elisa headache very soon 😃 .

    For the moment, I think it will help simplify things if I give these guys tempIDs :

    ACP00025kq / ACP00025kr : CSJuv10

    ACP0002aur : CSJuv10b

    ACP00024y2 / ACP00024y3 : CSJuv11 (with a "probably Eddy" annotation)

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Thanks for the new temp IDs. That helps a lot. Maybe we could do this for all the Shani and Elisa videos too? (Except matches, we are sure about of course.)

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks to both of you. Now I might be tempted to have a look into these ladies and their ears... 😕 😄

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Have fun 😛

    I will be doing it in the next days...

    Posted