LSMale03/ LSMale06/ ACP0005uet/ LSMale02 / Bruno are the same?

by PauDG scientist, moderator

Let's talk here about this proposal... 😉

Here the videos we have from them, sorted by date.

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005uy3 2013 10 3 LSMale03

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ugp 2013 10 3 LSMale06

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ugq 2013 10 3 LSMale06

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ugr 2013 10 3 LSMale06

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ugs 2013 10 3 LSMale06

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005uet 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ueu 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005uev 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005l76 2013 10 25 Bruno

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005l77 2013 10 25 Bruno

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ve0 2013 11 30 LSMale02

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005ve1 2013 11 30 LSMale02

http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/subjects/ACP0005wbj 2014 11 20 Bruno

In both videos from Bruno we can see the gap in his head, so at least we need to be able to see it also in LSMale02, if the video angle's allow us

Posted September 21, 2015 9:54 AM
by AnLand moderator

Yes, thanks @PauDG! As I said several times during the matching proposal of LSMale03 and 06, I see hints to a bigger matching that includes additionally LSMale02 and Bruno. I am glad, we can look into that before naming the proposed "smaller" match.

The most important similarities for me are the small ears (quite deep on the round head), the narrow straight brows, and the small narrow eyes. Additionally, I see the same baldness with the standing, a bit graying hair, the white midline above the brows, and the big knobbly nostrils. He has a gray back and gray legs. (This last feature is not well seen in the liana scene due to the different light, I think.

The wound in LSMale02 – I looked closely several times. The perspective is good at 1 sec. in ACP0005ve1. Sometimes I see a white spot at the right position, but mostly not. 😉 I cannot really say. He also seems to have more white spots on the muzzle (right side) that I did not see in the others (but these others are mostly feeding and have in all videos of the "confirmed" LSMale03/06 etc. match fruit pulp in their mouth).

Also: the videos from LSMale02 are ten days after last sighting of Bruno (November 20 and 30, 2013).

One other thing I want to mention for this discussion: we matched Bruno from ACP0005wbj solely based on the wound behind his ear, unfortunately no others features are seen (maybe the baldness).

As I do not have much time today, I just copy pictures from the prospective chimps list. I can later this week look for new perspective in the videos.

(I am totally fine with not agreeing to this match. In that case we can name one more chimp 😃 😃 , but I have it in my head for some time now and cannot decide what to think.)

Posted September 21, 2015 3:29 PM
by Snorticus

That was very helpful, @PauDG in thinking about this proposal! These guys all look very similar as AnLand says. The differing angles and lighting situations really make it hard to make exact comparisons that can be seen in the previews.

I'm having trouble with the idea that LSMale06 is a definite match to Bruno, though I agree with her that the other guys are a match to Bruno. LSMale06 has a very similar face and the small ears set back on his head. He has similar coloring, but I had some thoughts:

1). LSMale06 seems to have a more robust lower body than what we see of Bruno in ACP0005wbj though Bruno's body is in a completely different position, so it might just be that.

Possibly it's just the angle but LSMale06 looks really round and bear-like in the rear, also the thighs look bigger than Bruno's from the side view in ACP0005ugs.

2). I don't see the white gap on LSM06 chimp's head though we see the back of his head in ACP0005ugr. Again, might not be the right angle and maybe the light is not catching it as the scene is dim.

3). I don't know if this is acceptable scientific evidence to add to an ID, but LSMale06 chimp's behavior in ACP0005ugq and ACP0005ugr and ACP0005ugs seems very different from Bruno and the other chimps proposed in the match. He seems worried and guarded - not confident and casual like Bruno and the others seem to be - he whimpers and turns away from the passing chimp; Bruno and the others don't seem bothered in the least by other close chimps. He whimpers and turns from noise off camera. This makes him seem to be a more subordinate chimp to me. Maybe he's just worried about the vocalizing chimps off camera but I thought it might be a personality difference. I could be wrong about that personality thing though, like I was about Ebony carrying fruit around all the time 😉

Those are just my thoughts, these clips are hard to compare, but I agree with most of what AnLand has proposed.

Posted September 21, 2015 5:34 PM
by jwidness moderator

I don't want to commit 100% because I just don't feel that comfortable with LS, and I don't know all the males. But I completely agree with AnLand about the long list of similar features among all these males, and about the features that make me hesitate a bit (the spot on the back of the head, and the white edge of the lip). At any rate, I don't see anything here that makes me sure these males are different, and I see a lot of things that make me think they might be the same, so at a minimum I would agree with holding off on a name for LSMale03/06/ACP0005uet until we're more sure.

Posted September 21, 2015 6:52 PM
by Snorticus

Also clips of LSMale06:
ksigler noted that on 10-03-13 at 10:12 ACP0005ugx ACP0005ugy ACP0005ugz and Boleyn hash tagged LSMale06 in ACP0005uh0 - is a probable continuation of the LSMale06 scene, so we need to take a look at that again, and ACP0005uh1 ACP0005uh2 ACP0005uh3 ACP0005uh4 are on the list as LSMale 06.

Posted September 21, 2015 8:28 PM
by jwidness moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

Good point! I actually went through the spreadsheet adding timestamp info today and then completely forgot the reason I started doing that was to look for videos that might belong to these scenes. I think you got almost all of them, but AnLand also mentioned ACP0005uxu and ACP0005uxv earlier -- they have LSMale03 in the back right, just before he shows up in ACP0005uy3. (There are actually 10 videos recorded over ~50 minutes that day, but I think LSMale03 only shows up in those 2 sets -- feel free to check my work though!).

So to add to Paula's list:

ACP0005uxu 2013 10 3 LSMale03

ACP0005uxv 2013 10 3 LSMale03

ACP0005uy3 2013 10 3 LSMale03

ACP0005ugp 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugq 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugr 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugs 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugx 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugy 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugz 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh0 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh1 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh2 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh3 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh4 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uet 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005ueu 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005uev 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005l76 2013 10 25 Bruno

ACP0005l77 2013 10 25 Bruno

ACP0005ve0 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005ve1 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005wbj 2013 11 20 Bruno

Posted September 21, 2015 10:20 PM
by Snorticus in response to jwidness's comment.

Thanks for that updated list and chronology - I'm not as methodical as you guys and I just happened to notice the ones I listed while browsing through my LS9 chimp collection and Paula's official chimp list, and the previous discussions, so going down through your list in order will be nice!

Posted September 22, 2015 12:34 AM
by Snorticus

LSMale02 is also in these clips I think, the time is very close:

ACP0005ve2 11-30-2013. 16:51 LSMale02 sitting right edge of frame as a continuation of ACP0005ve1?

ACP0005ven 11-30-2013. 16:53 Male sitting right edge of frame?

ACP0005veo continuing clip, Male sitting right. leaves after a juvenile runs through?

Posted September 22, 2015 2:41 AM
by PauDG scientist, moderator

Hi all,
here an update with these last video from LSMale02, and with the last video from Bruno that we have, because I ordered wrongly in the beginning (I wrote 2014 😕 )

Edit*

ACP0005uxv 2013 10 3 LSMale04, LSMale03 entering

ACP0005uxw 2013 10 3 LSMale04, LSMale03 on the left

ACP0005uy3 2013 10 3 LSMale03

ACP0005ugp 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugq 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugx 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugy 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugr 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugz 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh0 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh1 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh2 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh3 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005ugs 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005uh4 2013 10 3 LSMale06

ACP0005l76 2013 10 25 Bruno

ACP0005l77 2013 10 25 Bruno

ACP0005uet 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005ueu 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005uev 2013 10 25 "ACP0005uet"

ACP0005wbj 2013 11 20 Bruno

ACP0005ve0 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005ve1 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005ve2 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005ven 2013 11 30 LSMale02

ACP0005veo 2013 11 30 LSMale02

Posted September 22, 2015 9:45 AM
by AnLand moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

Re: ACP0005uxu and ACP0005uxv - LSMale03 is the one in the background (left upper corner) exiting and entering and crossing again in ACP0005uy3. We discussed it briefly here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000l/discussions/DCP0000d8l and I thought you agreed.

Posted September 22, 2015 11:23 AM
by PauDG scientist, moderator

yes!!!! thanks! So i am going to update the list again 😉

Posted September 22, 2015 1:14 PM
by Snorticus

Having watched these clips many times now, I am not seeing really anything that is absolutely different about all of these chimps. The lighting, camera angles, and distance vary so much that details are hidden or lacking, but I see nothing that proves they are separate chimps and many similarities in the eyes, brow shape & size, big nostrils, and the robust body shape. The ones who reach for things consistantly use the left hand (LSMale03 and ACP0005uet don't reach for anything), so that may be another similarity.

Posted September 23, 2015 1:35 AM
by PauDG scientist, moderator

Nice!

we can merge already these males, at least that you prefer to wait to watch more videos... let me know.
Thanks!!

Posted September 23, 2015 9:32 AM
by AnLand moderator

So, if everyone agree I would propose to name LSMale03/ LSMale06/ ACP0005uet: Bruno 😃

Maybe @jwidness want to propose the same for LSMale02!

(But we can wait as well if there are still doubts.)

Posted September 24, 2015 10:33 AM
by PauDG scientist, moderator

ahahahah 😉

Posted September 24, 2015 11:16 AM