3 Chimps one of which is Brown Female Adult

by depuppy3

ACP0006cc2 ACP0006cc3 ACP0006cc4 3 Chimps smell an area where baboons had been sitting and eating at. Great pic of Brown Adult Female.

Posted October 6, 2015 11:28 PM

by depuppy3

enter image description here Beautiful

Posted October 6, 2015 11:28 PM

by depuppy3

enter image description here Rear view

Posted October 6, 2015 11:37 PM

by Snorticus

ACP0006cc2 What a nice view up close! I'm assuming this is Roux - same somewhat "uni-brow" prominent straight pale brows, regular ears, beautiful reddish fur. She has some pale pigment speckling on her muzzle here. I think as Bohe mentioned she may have been eating white fruit and had it on her face and in her mouth when we first saw her with so much white on her muzzle in clip ACP0007a88 on 4-26-2013.
She also has some pigment speckling on her fingers and toes.

So pretty!

auburn fur chimp

Posted October 7, 2015 12:33 AM

by depuppy3

enter image description here

Posted October 7, 2015 1:08 AM

by depuppy3

Does eating white fruit really make you look and act like this? lol

Posted October 7, 2015 1:09 AM

by Snorticus

She looks a bit weird above, poor gal, I think her pigmentation patterns on her face may change over time too, As AnLand mentioned in http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000g2o we found another chimp named Pearl who had white facial pigmentation issues and her face went through a lot of changes.

She seems pretty happy & healthy in ACP0006cc2 though doesn't she? 😃

Posted October 7, 2015 2:10 AM

by MimiA scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

I love this still - great choice 😃

Posted October 7, 2015 4:07 PM

by depuppy3

So, is this "Roux"?

Posted October 7, 2015 10:37 PM

by Snorticus in response to depuppy3's comment.

It is. Great find, depuppy3!

Posted October 8, 2015 12:27 AM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator

With or without white pigmentation, she is sooo gorgeous! 😃

Posted October 9, 2015 6:15 AM

by ksigler moderator

Following behind Roux in ACP0006cc3 is a young single female. Her body is very lean, and her back is almost flat and bony looking. Her left ear bends or curves outward at the top, and the backs of her legs are rather sparse in hair.

female

Possible match in ACP00077qk (poor quality, video may be more helpful than still photo)

This is a tough match, but I thought I'd put it out there since we have so few single females at this site. See the first chimp to enter from the right. She's also a lean younger female, with the left ear that curves outward at the top, and flashes of bare skin showing on the back of her legs (the lighting is very different here, however). Large pale swellings in both clips, as well.

female

Thoughts?

Posted November 17, 2015 2:38 AM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

I see the curved ear too...I need more opinions.

what about this guy´s butt? doesn´t it remind you of someone?

ACP00064nw:

NOTABLE MALE 1:

ACP0006ghf:

and this last one ACP00077qk:

Posted November 17, 2015 7:09 AM

by jwidness moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

As you said, tough match on the female. I'd like to see her again from the front so we'd have a face to match, but I do really think you're right about her.

Posted November 17, 2015 2:06 PM

by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

For the male: yeah, these testicles look very familar. Long with dark skin and lighter balls, freely swinging. 😛

(In addition to the other back features, of course. But you discussed them already.)

Posted November 17, 2015 3:51 PM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator

...he (or his butt) deserves a place in the list of possible matches 😛

Posted November 18, 2015 6:21 AM

by jwidness moderator

Getting back to young single female from @ksigler -- I think she's in a few more videos too. Her swelling is somewhat unusual in that it's more ventrally oriented (looks kind of like a bonobo swelling). In addition to ACP0006cc3 and ACP00077qk mentioned above, I'll add a few more:

ACP0006bzg, where you can also see the curve to her left ear

enter image description here

ACP00072wj and ACP00072wk

enter image description here

ACP0006lxs ACP0006lxt ACP0006lxu (sorry, bad preview)

enter image description here

I also think she may be in some other ones, but the quality is poor, and I think the dates don't all make sense. Maybe someone else can take a look? ACP00070d4 and ACP00070d5, ACP00072l1 and ACP00072l2, ACP00072hu and ACP00072hv, ACP00072j8, ACP00072rx

Posted December 15, 2015 5:34 AM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

@jwidness, this is hard :S

I must admit that I only see `obvious´ similarities between ACP0006cc3 and ACP0006bzg (and perhaps ACP00077qk too). You are right about their left ear. Matching swellings is risky, and even more with such quality and in the distance.

By the way, there is a beautiful lady with a ventral infant in ACP0006bzg and a white spot above her left eye that we (or I 😃 ) have missed!

DL11Female33 with DL11Infant28 :}

Posted December 15, 2015 7:11 AM

by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

@NuriaM - regarding the young female, you said that you see obvious similarities in ACP0006cc3, ACP0006bzg, and perhaps ACP00077qk. Can you explain what you mean by "obvious?" The similarities, I'm assuming, are the age, body size/shape, social status and swelling appearance (both with a grain of salt), curved left ear, and possibly hair patterns/density. There is still reluctance to match, which is fine, but is it because you can't see enough to be sure due to clip quality, or that this combination of traits isn't unique enough to be her and no one else? Thanks. 😃

Posted December 15, 2015 1:37 PM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

Hi @ksigler, sorry that I didn´t give a convincing explanation...I was actually more focussed on the new female :S

yes, I see them ( ACP0006cc3 and ACP0006bzg) same sized, colored, aged, and mostly their left ear:

about ACP00077qk, the quality makes it really difficult, but I THINK I see her folded left ear too: sorry, there´s no nice shot of it, but if you look at the first sec. you might see it.

and for the rest, my reluctance is basically because of the video quality and the fact the swellings alone don´t convince me. I need to see more of them, and if I see some evidence of match, then the swellings would be an extra point 😃.

I´m giving ACP0006cc3 and ACP0006bzg a temporary ID and place them together. I hope this makes it a bit easier for us; DL11Female34 and DL11Female35

Posted December 16, 2015 6:30 AM

by AnLand moderator

I think, one of the arguments here is that it is a single female (without any apparent offspring around). I do not really have an opinion, but here ACP00072k9 is another one. She is dark (might be a bit more robust), bald, her left ear appears a bit light at the top, but I don't know whether it is folded. Maybe @ksigler can take a look. Swelling looks to me quite normal.

enter image description here

There is a male following her (more in ACP00072kb), but I cannot see much.

Posted December 19, 2015 9:17 PM

by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

I've been thinking about the female from ACP00072k9, but hadn't quite finished a post about her. I don't think she's the single young female we've been discussing in this thread so far. I think she's bigger, balder, more robust, with darker facial skin, and her swelling doesn't have the same orientation that ksigler's female's has. I don't see a curl to her ear, but the quality isn't great, so I'm not sure if I would see it even if it's there. 😕 I also suggested that the swollen female from ACP00072l1 and ACP00072l2 might be ksigler's female, and I doubt she would cross the screen toward the left at 9:24, and then walk around and cross again at 9:30 in the same direction. That would at least mean there are two swollen females around, and to me ACP00072l1 is a likelier (though not at all certain) match.

I actually also suspect (heavy on the suspect part) that the female from ACP00072k9 is not nulliparous (while I think ksigler's female is). I'm guessing that the juvenile in ACP00072k8 a couple minutes earlier may belong to this female, and we see so little of her that it's easy for me to imagine another small juvenile/large infant close to her, but off camera. (Compared to the female in ACP00072l1 and ACP00072l2, who seems quite unlikely to have a kid around.)

I've been thinking about whether the female from ACP00072k9 could match the female with large infant, large juvenile, and a swelling a couple days later in ACP00072ko ACP00072kq ACP00072ks ACP00072ku and ACP00072mo.

enter image description here

My hesitation (and why I didn't post about it) is that there is another female with dorsal infant, and perhaps a swelling (hard to see) in the area too -- in ACP00072l0 (no good previews).

At any rate, in case this helps anyone, the chronology for the chimp videos on those two days (2/28 and 3/2) is:

ACP00072k8 2/28/2013 9:21 juvenile climbing up a tree

ACP00072k9, ACP00072kb 2/28/2013 9:24 swollen female (no infant visible) and male

ACP00072l0, ACP00072l1, ACP00072l2 2/28/2013 9:30 male, female with dorsal infant, swollen female (that I suggested may be ksigler's female), male

(no chimp videos between these)

ACP00072ko, ACP00072kq, ACP00072ks, ACP00072ku 3/2/2013 8:37 male, female with large dorsal infant and large juvenile

ACP00072mo 3/2/2013 8:39 clearly the end of the same female from ACP00072ku

ACP00072ms 3/2/2013 8:47 male

(no more chimp videos until 3/12)

The TL;DR here is, I don't know that we're going to be able to match most of these, but I don't think the female from ACP00072k9 is the female we're looking for 😕

Posted December 20, 2015 12:40 AM

by AnLand moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

Thanks, @jwidness, I did not think that she is this female too because her body build is different. I had been thinking about this family in ACP00072ko too, but thought she would not climb down the tree without her infant. But on the other hand, somebody must have triggered the camera and the older juvenile (if true) is already gone ...

That said and to stay with the younger female (probably nulliparous): what about the young female not fully swollen here, but with quite big general swelling in ACP0007e21 and ACP0007e22 (also here not totally clear what triggered the camera). We have a face view with round, protruded brows, flat nostrils, a beginning baldness midway about the brows, bigger ears (looks lighter here, but that might be caused by the infrared mode). The ears stick out, but I cannot really see any unusual curving. She still looks quite young and lean (petite).

enter image description here

Swelling better seen in the second video ACP0007e22

enter image description here

Posted December 20, 2015 10:28 AM

by ksigler moderator

Don't have much to add here, unfortunately. I think the female here in ACP00072k9 is larger than Fem34 from ACP0006cc3. From a distance, she does have similar look to the mother in the ACP00072ko sequence, but too far to confirm, and we'd have no explanation for the missing kids in ACP00072k9. Though, from listening to the clips (with and without chimps), it's clear that there is traffic behind the camera which could explain a lot... or not. Going only on what we can see, I agree with @jwidness 's short answer of, we're probably not going to be able to match these females, at least not from just these clips.

Posted December 21, 2015 1:33 AM

by AnLand moderator

It seems that it hard to discuss her, but could we at least give the female in front of ACP0007e21 and ACP0007e22 a temporary ID? The view on this triangular face is really good and her body and swelling are well visible too. I agree that the night videos are hard, but maybe it will help later to sort the young females out.

Posted December 21, 2015 4:47 PM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

Absolutely!! sorry that I didn´t do it before, I must admit that I have been a bit overwhelmed by this post :S

DL11Female38 😃

Posted December 22, 2015 5:28 AM

by jwidness moderator

All AnLand's talk of nipples made me recheck the female from ACP00072k9 -- you can see her hanging nipple right as she enters the frame around :07. With a nipple like that, I'm sure she's not nulliparous 😉

Although the footage of the "young single female" is mostly not so great, I don't see any signs of nipple development in any of the videos. I think it's possible we only have two nulliparous cycling females -- Roux and the one we've been discussing here.

Posted December 29, 2015 10:56 PM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

@jwidness, do you mean DL11Female38?

Posted December 30, 2015 6:37 AM

by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

No, the visible nipple she refers to is seen in the female in ACP00072k9. I suggested earlier that she might be a young single female, but I thought we already discussed and excluded that. She might have already two kids. I support @jwidness' suggestion from above at least half-heartedly. 😉

Maybe we should make a separate post with an overview of all "young single females" (that are not Roux) to see whether they together reveal something about their identity. I can do this tonight, but I have to go to work now.

Posted December 30, 2015 6:52 AM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

Thanks @AnLand, I think it would help a lot 😃

Posted December 30, 2015 7:12 AM

by jwidness moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

Sorry, that wasn't quite what I meant, let me try to explain my logic. The swollen female with no visible infant in ACP00072k9 is followed a few minutes later by a swollen female with no infant in ACP00072l1 and ACP00072l2. The timing/direction of travel and differing appearance of these two females suggest they are almost certainly different from each other. Although we had decided the female from ACP00072k9 isn't a match to Female34/Female35, in my mind there was still a chance that she really didn't have an infant and thus that would mean there are at least two cycling females without infants besides Roux (i.e. the female from ACP00072k9 and the female from ACP00072l1). Eliminating the female from ACP00072k9 as being nulliparous due to her "used" nipple, I was suggesting perhaps there is only one nulliparous cycling female besides Roux, and that all the videos earlier discussed might be her. Rather than list all those videos out again, I'll move the discussion over to AnLand's thread, if that's ok.

Posted December 30, 2015 3:48 PM

by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

I know we use nipple appearance as supporting evidence in matching, but if we're going to use it more intensively to include/exclude from sociodemographic categories, I'd like to understand the science of them a little more. 😃

Do we know that all nursing females will have elongated nipples, and that ONLY nursing females will have elongated nipples?
For how long after nursing do they stay elongated (a few hours, a few years, permanently)?
In cases where we only see one nipple, can we conclude that the other one is of a matching condition?

Posted December 30, 2015 8:15 PM

by jwidness moderator

I'm not 100% sure on all this, but I'll tell you what I believe is true. Females that have never nursed will not have long nipples. Females that have nursed may have long nipples, but it's hard to say exactly how long they might be. Some of what contributes to the appearance of long nipples is also the enlargement of the mammary glands, which definitely shrink as the infant is weaned, but long nipples won't ever return to their original pre-infant length. You should not conclude that if a female has one long nipple, the other one will be long as well. Infants usually have a distinct preference to nurse on one side, and that nipple tends to get longer than the other.

Posted December 30, 2015 8:25 PM

by yshish moderator

(Ah, those nipples! So much fun about them 😄. Still thinking of that baboon with 'three' of them.)

Posted December 30, 2015 8:29 PM

by AnLand moderator

Oh, come on, you're all girls! Having kids yourselves or not, you should know how a body changes with an infant! I would be surprised if chimp females does not suffer this fate. 😛 And unfortunately, some people are more blessed than others.

Posted December 30, 2015 8:34 PM

by jwidness moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

True, but to be fair, chimpanzee breasts are so different from human breasts that it wouldn't be all that surprising to find differences in the nipples as well. Also, most human females only spend a fraction of their adult life nursing, while chimp females are usually lactating nearly all of it.

Anyway, I found a few pictures to illustrate my point.

Here is an adult nulliparous female.

enter image description here

Here is the same adult female on the right, with her (obviously parous) mother on the left. Her mom has not nursed an infant since this daughter was weaned many years ago.

enter image description here

Here are two adult parous females (center and left, plus two males on the right). The female higher up only nursed her infant for about 2 months. Neither has nursed in at least 5 years.

enter image description here

Posted December 30, 2015 8:59 PM

by AnLand moderator

I am not sure, what your point is here. There are differences. Ok, I expect this. My point is: this is nature (or biology). Even if all papers suggest a range between X and Y, it does not mean that an outlier Z is not possible. It is just less probable (maybe, much less probable). We did not expect a swelling in pregnant Maggie(-Ollie). Yet, it was there and I understand that even the science team agreed with this proposal. Pregnant (human) women are menstruating (not so rare, actually - if you just count, but rarer if you apply population size). Nipples wear out - and will never get back to the original size. But maybe close.

My point is: e.g., if a female has a big swelling on day A and no swelling at all on day A+1 - that is probably physiologically impossible as fluids and enlarged skin surface must normalize and these processes take some time. I don't think, more can be taken from this as not much is known and outliers are always possible and need to be investigated carefully. The C&S videos might not provide enough evidence for a conclusive proof as - I expect - we do not see much of the whole picture.

Posted December 30, 2015 9:27 PM

by ksigler moderator

So, if they can change over time, and bounce back to different degrees after nursing (and I assume based on the age of the female and number of offspring), it seems that nipples are still only good for supporting evidence to support or disprove a match based on less unpredictable traits. Unless they're obviously abnormal in some way, of course. Otherwise, even in these close-up, crisp photographs, I can only barely see a difference between the nipples of the daughter in the first pic and her mother in the second. Compare these photos to the less clear Dry Lake footage with limited context, and I think the percentage of clips where this will make or break a match (especially for @NuriaM 😃 ) is very small. Interesting, though, for sure.

Posted December 31, 2015 6:56 AM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator

Interesting...

I would add to @jwidness explanation on nipples that during the first months of the intant´s life, they tend to nurse from the left nipple, and the reason is thought to be the fact that the mom uses her left arm to hold (and to cradle) the ventral infant and the right one to walk.

Some authors ( Salk (1973) ) believe that the infants have a left nipple preference because it is closer to the mom´s heart, which might work as a stimulus.

Posted December 31, 2015 8:11 AM

by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

I've heard related theories about human mothers and the side they cradle their babies on... the right side being used by mothers who are stressed or depressed, and the left meaning & promoting a healthier mental state and connection with the baby. Don't know how true (or consistent) it is, but it seems evolution may support it, so I'm more inclined to believe it. 😃

Posted December 31, 2015 1:08 PM

by AnLand moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

Left is the heart. Mom's heart beat might soothing the baby. At least, that's the saying here about it. 😃

Posted December 31, 2015 1:11 PM

by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

yes, and I believe that it makes sense 😃

Posted January 4, 2016 5:28 AM