Chimp & See Talk

Bald female with large white spots on her back and a ventral infant

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    DL11Female15 was given her temporary name because of her distinctive white scars/spots on her back. We know that she carries a ventral infant which is drinking beside her in this scene.

    enter image description here

    Now there is this series I just stumbled upon. I don't know why nobody finished of the series of ACP00073yd because there, in earlier videos. we find the same bad back again. ACP00073ya ACP00073yb ACP00073yc

    This female carries a ventral infant which I think is big enough to ride on her back. Does she have too much pain on the back and therefore carries the infant the other way around? Look how big the infant already is!
    Also this female is medium sized, mostly dark, very bald with a white beard including the protruding ears - all the same as with Fem15. DL11Infant14 can't be seen well and I don't see a white spot on the head of this infant but it has also protruding ears which might reflect the light quite a bit. It definitely has a very white tuft.

    ![enter image description here]
    (https://static.zooniverse.org/www.chimpandsee.org/subjects/553804f669736d628800dee0/previews/553804f669736d628800dee0_2.jpg)

    her bad back (the infant at the very right)

    enter image description here

    the infant walking to the mother to get some milk:

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    I like therefore to suggest a match between those two. Looking forward to your opinions! Thanks.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Seems like a reasonable match to me -- what about the other match suggestion to DL11Female15 discussed here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000hdy

    Do you think all 3 are the same? In the other set, she's got the same very bald head

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    I thought the scars were in different spots on the backs, however we don't see in ACP00073yc series her full back. Could we have three different females with back scars? I need to go back and check the dates on all of these.

    Scar on back of DL11Female18 in ACP0006v9v

    Fem18 scar on back

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Just for reference, the dates on the female white scar chimp clips:

    ACP000692g 2-11-2013 18:33 #DL11Female15 #DL11Infant14 water hole chimps

    ACP0006v9v 4-18-2013 18:28 #DL11Female18 termite mound chimps

    ACP00073ya 5-26-2013 06:42 one female, one unknown, one ventral infant, one juvenile

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Yes actually now I do think they are all the same. In the other thread you mentionned I missed the ventral infant for a long time. But I went back now and studied the whole scene again and thanks to @Snorticus I was able to make out the infant as well.

    Although not very good visible I think the females' features are the same: bald head, protruding ears etc. The problem is, that in all the videos we always see her only from one side. Nevertheless I think it's always her with scars on either side of her back.

    Maybe it helps to compare DL11Juvenile12 from the mound scene and the new Juvenile from this scene here:

    Juvenile has regular features, rounded brows a little bit protruding, pinkish muzzle and nose, a bit darker around the eyes, big round nicely shaped ears.It has a very white thin pointy tuft.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Description of DL11Juvenile12 is: S/he is a big juvenile with a quite pinkish face, only a bit darker in the eye area. Regular pigmentation. Normal and round ears:
    I think that is the same browline and it has also this small pointy tuft.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

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    Would it make sense to switch those two discussions together? (This one and the two bold mothers...)

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    I agree, @Snorticus, the scars look to be in different places. Particularly in ACP00073yc -- at :14 seconds, not seen in a still photo -- there is a moment where you can see light streaks on both sides of the mother's back, almost symmetrical. It's making me wonder if these are just temporary parts in the hair, wet or dirty spots, or hairless areas from where the infant has been hanging on.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    How long do the females carry their infants ventrally? Does nobody think that the infant in this new series (with no temporary names yet) is already quite big and should be carried on the back? It's not so much smaller than the Juvenile but it has quite thin limbs.

    Here's my new theory about the scars: They are actually no scars but just the marks left behind when the infant lets loose of mom's back. When the female arrives you can see the right hand of the infant on her back at the precise same spot where afterwards the white mark can be seen.

    enter image description here

    Hence there are more similarities between these two groups. In the mound scene as well as in the new scene is a male around.

    Here's DL11Male6 at the right of the mound:

    enter image description here

    and the new male holding on to the tree. I don't say they have to be a match it's just the very same constellation:

    enter image description here

    I would like to go one step further even and propose DL11female1 (and Juvenile1 for that) as a match.
    She has the same bald head and protruding ears and the juvenile with her looks also much the same as our buddy here. Female1 shows no white sports. I think this is because she carries her infant ventrally. If there are spots they would be under the hands of the infant. Now this is in October 12, the mound scene is in May 13 and the newest scene in July 13. Still she carries the infant ventrally for reasons only she knows.

    DL11Female1 and DL11Juvenile1

    enter image description here

    I hope this makes sense. What do you think?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    The time an infant spends carried ventrally varies, sometimes by a considerable amount. Additionally, the transition process takes some time and there will be overlap between ventral and dorsal carrying. Some mothers will try to get their infants to ride dorsally within the first few months (not always successfully), most infants start to ride dorsally between 6 and 12 months old, but even after a year they may be carried ventrally, especially during stressful times. I read a paper suggesting that one reason why infants switch to dorsal is they simply become to big and heavy for habitual ventral carrying. The authors compared gorillas (who switch to dorsal at a younger age) and chimps and found that the weight at which they switch to dorsal is the same across both species -- about 5kg-7kg.

    I agree the infant here seems fairly big for ventral, but not totally unreasonable.

    I don't think the bald spot is just where the infant was grabbing -- all moms have infants grabbing their hair, but we don't see the white spots on other females. Also, we saw a big white spot on Rufus in lingering shape, but he's quite unlikely to have gotten that from a grabby infant ; )

    I think all three white-spot females are the same and the difference in appearance of the spot is due to angle and time. I actually was also considering DL11Female1 for her, but I had another video that I think is her as well and can't seem to find again 😕. I think the reason you can't see the spot in the DL11Female1 video is the bad angle.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks for the explanation @jwidness Yes it certainly also has to do with light, angle and quality of the different videos. I was just wondering because of the size of the infant.

    Maybe you're looking for these videos of DL11Female12 ? ACP00064om / ACP00064on
    She is already considered to be a match to Female1 which would close the circle so to speak. These videos are from October 2012 nine months earlier and I think the infant here is certainly more than 3 months old. But of course I'm not the expert to say 😃

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Thanks for posting DL11Female12 -- it wasn't actually the video I was thinking of, but I hadn't seen that match proposal. I still haven't caught up after missing the first few weeks of dry lake 😕

    I'm not sure about whether DLFemale12 is a match to the bald lady with a back scar proposal above. She's quite bald, but maybe a little less bald than DLFemale1? I'm definitely not ruling her out, especially since the size/age of her two offspring match nicely to DL11Female1.

    To summarize the match proposal discussed so far (copied and updated from Snorticus), we have:

    ACP00064om 10-15-2012 10:18 #DL11Female12 #DL11Infant11 #DL11Juv7 also in video is #DL11Juv8

    enter image description here

    ACP000692g 2-11-2013 18:33 #DL11Female15 (white back spot) #DL11Infant14 water hole chimps

    enter image description here

    ACP0006v9v 4-18-2013 18:28 #DL11Female18 (white back spot) termite mound chimps

    enter image description here

    ACP0007a94 around 4-18-2013 #DL11Female1 #DL11Infant1 plus lots of other chimps traveling

    enter image description here

    ACP00073ya 5-26-2013 06:42 one female (white back spot), one unknown (male?) holding a tree, one ventral infant, one juvenile

    enter image description here

    I'll keep looking for the video I was thinking of -- it has a very bald female sitting the the right of a termite mound. I think I saw it tagged in the recent stream, but no one discussed it and I didn't make a note of it at the time 😕

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hey guys, for some reason I have been having poblems with playing the vdeos 😦

    what I understand from your amazing post ( but without watching the new set ) is that you believe that this bald patch could be the same in all three females (15,18 and ACP00073ya). I really doubt that we have an angle issue in the last case, I really see that patch on the opposite side of her back...

    Still I believe that Female1 and Female12 are a match. Maybe, to simplify things, we could focus on this match, if we all agree we can give these two guys (Female1/Infant1 + Female12/Infant11) their names, so that we can go eliminating possibilities, what do you think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    By the way, thanks @jwidness for your explanation 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Like @jwidness mentionned before I am also not 100% sure about this match. But I'm not the pro and maybe it's just the different quality and light in the videos that make me hesitate. Maybe we can get some more opinions?

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    What do you think about the female discussed here: http://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000o/discussions/DCP0000ip9

    Should we merge the threads?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    good morning @AnLand 😃

    yes, actually this post got a bit confusing, that´s why I proposed to go step by step and to start by the sipliest proposal: Female1 and Female12. But now I checked your point about the dent in Female1, and you are right, I didn´t see it before. Hmmm....it might be the light as well.

    opinions?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @jwidness do you really want to merge the above thread together with this one? The female chimp there cleary has a silver/grey lower back. These chimps here don't. They have marks or scars but beside of that they are mostly black.
    Earlier we were talking about matching this thread with this one:
    2 bald mothers with back scars?

    @NuriaM I can't see any post of @AnLand in here. Do I miss something? I wouldn't wonder because it really is a bit confusing with all the bald ladies... 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thanks @NuriaM, it seems that my posting is gone while I was a work ... But yes, DL11Female1 has a small dent in her right ear. I think, we cannot see whether it is there in DL11Female12 as we do not see the ear from the side. (Also in No. 1 we see it only while looking from the side.) But I really have difficulties to match them both. No. 1 looks so devastated. But it can be the light, the white lips from feeding, and she might have a bad hair day, too.

    For the other point I made about what is now DL11Female22 - @Boleyn now already wrote that she looks different (fur coloration, browline etc.).

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP00073yu 5-26-2013 at 6:43 This clip is a minute later than the 1st series mentioned in this discussion ACP00073ya 5-26-2013 at 6:42 ACP00073yb ACP00073yc ACP00073yd

    Preview is not great.

    balding mom and big infant

    I am assuming this is the female with the scar on the left side of her back & her big infant exiting the clearing. It's short but we can see how bald she is although it's difficult to see if her right ear has a small dent. She has fairly straight brows and a grey beard like DL11Female1 in clip ACP0007a94

    Female 1 also balding

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hm...not sure, look at their right ears, Female1´s is a bit rounder than this last one, which looks sort of square-shaped at the top?

    one one

    you can´t really see it fine from the pics, but if you check the video it´s clearer, I think...

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    I am keeping her as DL11Female23 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Well at least our female has a temporary name now, thanks @NuriaM 😃

    About the ear of female1 I'm not sure if it's really so round. I can see kind of a square shape as well:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    hm...it´s really hard to tell 😕

    I really doubt about these two ladies being a match. I see Female1´s face a bit longer than Female´s 23 , but maybe it´s just the angle...

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Looking again, Fem23 has rather fluffy forearms that we don't see in Fem1, whose arms are slim. I see what @NuriaM is saying about the longer face on Fem1 as Fem23 muzzle seems more rounded. At least we got a better look at the face of Fem 23 for future comparisons, though.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    yes, you are right...thanks @Boleyn for your zoomed pic of Fem23 😃

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    uhm...did I? "scratching head..." the zoom is female1.
    Actually I think the size/length of the faces of F1 and F23 are really just different due to another angle. And Fem23 has fluffy arms as well, as you can see here:

    enter image description here

    at the same spot as Fem1, right around the ellbows:

    enter image description here

    It's such a pity that the quality of the movies is not better 😦

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    yes, sorry my bad 😛

    Posted