Chimp & See Talk

Piki & family

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Are we positive about the Piki sequences? I think we may have 2 different Piki's, as they look different to me and the families they're traveling with look different.

    The first Piki sequence is from 9/30, where Piki attempts to climb the rock (in ACP00064o2 ).

    ACP00064o0 (Female25 + dorsal Infant20)

    Female25 and Infant20 back
    Female25 and Infant20 front

    ACP00064o1 (Piki + Female25 + dorsal Infant20 in the distance)

    Piki front
    Piki back

    Then, we have the 2nd Piki sequence from 10/14 where Piki poops on the rock. The others are un-named.

    ACP00064oq (Female + dorsal infant, followed by small juvenile, then Female + ventral infant, then Piki)

    Female + infant
    Juvenile and Female + Infant and Piki

    Piki

    Finally we have this sequence from 10/15 that led me to this line of thinking.

    ACP00064om (Juvenile8)

    Juvenile8

    ACP00064on (Juvenile7 and Female12 + ventral Infant11)

    Juvenile7 and Female12 + Infant11

    So..... I believe that **2nd Piki and Juvenile8** may be the same. They look the same, and the rest of the family fits -- female + gray-faced ventral infant and smaller juvenile.

    1st Piki:

    Piki1

    2nd Piki:

    Piki2

    Juvenile8:

    Juvenile8

    Therefore, I believe that the female + ventral infant in ACP00064oq = Female12 + Infant11. And I think Female25 + Infant20 and 1st Piki from ACP00064o0 are completely unique, as are the unnamed smaller juvenile and female + dorsal infant in ACP00064oq. Either way, this could explain why "Piki" couldn't climb the rock on 9/30 but could on 10/14. I know this is a lot to follow, but what does everyone else think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    hmm...I don´t know, I see Juv8 ´s face a bit darker than Piki´s?

    but it´s an interesting brainstorm. I somehow see the first Piki´s face slightly different now...sort of longer 😕

    thoughts?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, I have been thinking about the same at least. (The first part, that something is wrong with the Piki match.) I started to have doubts when I wrote a blogpost about the climbing efforts and prepared the videos for it. I did not publish anything for this reason.

    But looking at all the juveniles here at Dry Lake, I am still totally lost. They somehow look all the same and I cannot say much more. They might or might not be the same. The direction of sunlight is very different and the facial features might look different because of this. Body size fits and at least I still take the climbing as an indicator. But, yes, I am not totally convinced anymore.

    (And I will not have time this week to look into the juveniles properly.)

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I will ask for more opinions...let´s see what @MimiA and @PaulDG think about it.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to ksigler's comment.

    ACP00064o1 I initially thought that the Piki facial differences in this clip were due to the strong side lighting of the sun in comparison to the very diffused overcast lighting of ACP00064oq but looking again I agree that pooping Piki has a rounder muzzle and shorter upper lip, and the nose is shaped differently - so probably different chimp but we don't get much of a look at the female in ACP00064oq or ACP00064or

    There are so many families or partial families or mixes of families traveling that it seems pretty difficult to be certain which juveniles belong with which females. For example - take another look at the back of ACP00064om

    There is a 3rd juvenile (easier to see in the clip) in back that looks toward the camera but never travels forward in the following clip sequence:

    3rd juvenile chimp

    In the next preview we can see the bigger female's head beside the juvenile who turns head toward her:

    female with 3rd juvenile

    Who does that juvenile go with and could it mean that the first juvenile belongs with another female already passed but not in front of the camera?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Hmm, I was assuming that the other juvenile in the back grabbed onto the mother's stomach as she walked by, thereby becoming the ventral "infant" we see when she approaches. It's hard to see if the little hand around her back was there before or after the juvenile went out of sight. I suppose she could have just walked around it and for some reason it stayed down on the ground.

    I agree, we may never sort some of these families out completely. This site is really tough.

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    It's possible it is the infant's head - it looks so huge for an infant, though! That would explain why it disappears, and the infant does have a pale face like the one we see looking toward the camera. I completely agree that this site is challenging!

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    Hi guys...

    here´s what the experts @MimiA and @PaulDG say:

    @PaulDG:

    pufff I am not sure.
    The 1st seems have the face a little bit longer, but maybe is because of the sunlight...
    if the reason to doubt is because the first one can not climb and the second one yes, she/he could learn in 15 days that is the difference between both videos.
    I can see some differences between their hair patron, the first one has some "lines" in her/his left leg and the second one in his/her left shoulder if that can help you somehow.

    and @MimiA:

    I would say first piki and 2nd piki are not a match (faces look different) but 2nd piki and juv8 could be a match but its so hard with juveniles 😛

    😛 this site is really hard!!! Fortunately I always make tag groups for each chimp we find that is identifiable, and I never delete the prospective chimps tag groups, even if we can match them.

    If we all agree, I can undo the Piki match (poor Juv5 😦 ); that would mean that we take `Piki´ tag away from Juv5 and give it to Juv8 (Juv4 and Juv8 would be now Piki)...agree?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to ksigler's comment.

    @ksigler, I agree with you that the third individual is mom´s ventral infant.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    Thank goodness you don't delete the prospective name tags, or we'd really be in trouble. 😃 I agree to this, but am fine if you want more opinions. This would make Fem12 & Inf11 also part of the ACP00064oq sequence with Piki.

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    ok, Piki´s issue is repaired...

    now I would like to discuss about the females:

    Female12/Infant11 + ACP00064oq female/ventral infant:

    one one

    do you all agree that these are the same ladies?

    just an annotation: the fact that she walks with Piki alone doesn´t necessarily mean that they belong together...aunts and siblings take care of infants and juveniles walk with more females other than their moms while travelling...

    still, these females are very likely to be a match for my taste 😃. In ACP00064oq sec.11 when she turns her face a bit, I see that she has like a grey beard and dark face like Female12. She has round ears (at least the left one) like Female12 too.

    Posted