Chimp & See Talk

Castor and Pollux--Twins or not twins - this is here the question

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    After looking at all those nice males at DawnBird I think I found the faces of my two travelling males in ACP0007jpa And even if they are not, I still think I found my twins in two different places and situations:

    Although moving fast we can see two males with gray backs. The grey of the first stretches a bit more towards the shoulders while the second's goes only a bit above the waistline In ACP0007h6t. No face view of the first but the second one I got a screenshot of the face. They do not look like full grown-ups rather older teenagers. But this might be just due to the perspective and fast movement.

    No. 1

    enter image description here

    No. 2

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    The second video shows two guys full face on ACP0007u7c with the same grey patterns on their backs.

    enter image description here

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    Now the two guys in ACP0007jpa seem to be full grown-ups but compare the grey areas with those of the "twins" above. I think they have a lot in common, beeing a bit larger with the first and waist-high with the second with an arrow-like mid section. Especially the grey part of the second (he's always the second to appear btw) has this very regular color with no distinction around the callousy cussion. Alst the testies are the same, the left one a bit higher up than the right. A trait which also both of them have in common.

    enter image description here

    Description of the two buddies:

    No. 1: bright muzzle including a small nose with some depigmentation around the mouth, darker mask. Brows again a bit lighter, somewhat protruding, slightly bowed. Big ears, the right ear is undamaged, the upper part quite wide. He might have a wide bald section. Two thirds of the back are grey, some grey parts on the upper chest as well.

    No. 2 looks quite alike, maybe the nose a little bit a bigger, not sure if it's depigmentation or just natural bright colored muzzle. Big intact, round ears. No baldness at all but brighter hair on the forehead. The grey on his back is about waist-high in average, higher up in the middle, less high on the sides. The left testicle is higher than the right one (seen from behind).

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Wow @Boleyn, that is awesome.

    Regarding the video ACP0007jpa, what about the 2 first chimps passing??

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Paula, for the second one in this video ACP0007jpa I made a proposal here but we need some more material. I hope I'll find him again. We know how he looks and his backside. Chances are still good... 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I was thinking that the backs from the 2nd and the 3rd one ( ACP0007jpa) are quite similar...

    and don't you find the second one from ACP0007u7c ....

    one

    ....similar to the second one here too?

    ACP0007jpa

    one

    I have to add these chimps to the list! it is difficult to talk about them without names.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I should wait until we have temp IDs, but just briefly: I think the second one in ACP0007jpa (already in the video, on the left, in the last picture before this posting) looks older, i.e., more like a grown-up, full adult. He is more robust than the young guys above. Also the testicles are longer, I assume that also kind of age-dependent. More when we have temp IDs. It's difficult to discuss without.

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi all,
    so

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to PauDG's comment.

    Thanks for the TempIDs Paula, that's really helpful.

    To answer your question first: no I do not consider DBMale06 and DBMale10 a match. Same as @Anland I think DBMale06 is older. Also 10 seems to have a completely bold head. I first thought that he has full hair but the brighter color of the head implies that he must be bald while 06's baldness is only in the middle of the head. And 06's testicles are longer as @AnLand stated.
    Additionally 06's back is about 2/3 grey while 10's back is only about half grey.

    Thus said I think DBMale06 has more in common with DBMale09. Same baldness, same amount of grey in the back, same brighter muzzle and small nose. Firtst I though he has also this white depigmentation around the mouth as DBMale09 has but a closer look did not show it. And what I also cannot see is the grey area that DBMale09 has on his chest. 06 seems to have a black chest. What I really think is that he could be the father of DBMale09 (and DBMale10 for that 😃 )

    DBMale06

    enter image description here

    and DBMale09

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Ok, back to DBMale10 first. The other ones I think are a match to DBMale10 are DBMale08 and DBMale12. (There's the other reason why 06 and 10 can't be a match: they are in the same video).

    DBMale10

    enter image description here

    DBMale08 (very bad quality but we see the baldness, the bright brows and muzzle and the highset, big ears)

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    The back of DBMale10

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    Back of DBMale08

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    My last conclusion would then be that DBMale07, DBMale09 and DBMale11 are a match as well. Unfortunately we can't see the faces of 07 and 11. I just think they might because if they are the same "couple" they stick together like bros, one always a step ahead.

    I know that this is not enough to match them, so how about this theory:

    DBMale09 face and back/thighs

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    and the chimp from ACP0007icm

    Now those have even the white depigmentation around the mouth in common together with the grey back and thighs (see video to see the back and thighs of this one) 😃

    enter image description here

    Good look in sorting all this out!! 😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Thanks Boleyn!

    Just to be sure, do you propose (for some of them there are not good face views, but no problem it is just a proposal 😉 ):

    • DBMale07= DBMale09= DBMale11= ACP0007icm

    • DBMale08= DBMale10= DBMale12

    right?

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    exactly, you got it, Paula! 😄

    DBMale09 and ACP0007icm do even have the same convexity in the shape of their baldness in common and when we see them close together there's really a huge resemblance. We do not see the grey part under the throat and on the chest of ACP0007icm but that is probably due to the poor quality, his arm position and then his brisk turn.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hi Boleyn,

    I agree this match (DBMale09 and ACP0007icm), but I am not so sure about Male07 or Male11.

    What do the others think??

    So we discard the match between DBMale06 and DBMale10?

    Thanks! 😉

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Glad you like the match, Paula 😄

    Re Male06 and Male10: I was never a fan of this match and I see your doubts with 07 and 11.

    But maybe we could come back for my initial proposal and include DBMale06 in the match? He still fits the description very well including the convexity in the shape of the baldness actually....what do you think?

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I think he fits 😄

    Also the backs have the same patron:

    one
    DBMale06

    one
    On the right, DBMale09

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    It would be great if somebody else could have a look at it as Paula asked above. Thanks!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Let's ask Nuria 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Nuria, we thing that DBMale06, DBMale09 and the one from ACP0007icm are the same. What do you think?

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hi ladies,

    hmmm...this one is tricky,

    I am far more confident about 06 and 09: upper lip depigmentation, same brow shape, and same body build.

    However, I have more doubts about ACP0007icm . I think he has sort of a more robust appearance and his belly looks a bit rounder. Although I see some face similarities to 09, the shoulders of ACP0007icm look a bit wider and I see he has rounder hips too. If I had to claim an age class here, I would say that 06 and 09 look like late adolescents/young adults and ACP0007icm looks more like an adult to me; of course this is just an approach, the videos are blurry and there´s only one-sec. fast view.

    So, as a conclusion, I would say YES to DBMale06 and DBMale09

    and MAYBE to ACP0007icm. As some of you already know, I am very rigid when it comes to matches, and a "maybe" for me is a "not now, but let´s keep an eye on it" . So I would Paula give him an ID anyway to keep him tracked, what do you think?

    I hope I could help a bit.

    😃

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Thanks Nuria!

    let's do that (for now, hahaha). So ACP0007icm will be DBMale13

    @Boleyn, do you want to select a name for DBMale06/ DBMale09?? Many thanks!

    anyway, more opinions are very welcome! 😉 Thanks all

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    😄 I really hope that DBMale13 can be soon matched!!

    or maybe someone else can add an argument pro male13 being part of this match... 😕

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Woohooo! Thanks so much, ladies, Nuria for looking into it and confirming the match of 06 and 09 and Paula for your support and for asking me to name this chimp!

    For a long time I have played with the idea of him beeing a twin and it could still be for all we know. Therefore I'd ike to name him "Castor" after the mortal one of the ancient Greek twin brothers. This also as a kick to hunt some more for his "brother" 😄

    It would be great if we could match DBMale13 as well but I understand the arguments from Nuria. I was also aware of his rounder shapes overall but thought that this might be a certain degree of piloerection (?) since he looks very fluffy in this video. Also the belly size can vary after a good meal, right?

    When we compare the faces there is so much similarity there that I still would vote for this match. Such are the same browline, the bright part on the right brow, the brighter spot on the temple, the shape and size of the baldness, the small nose, the color and shape of the dark mask, the upper lip depigmentation and the intact, round ear. ok, I'm running out of arguments 😉

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator

    hey @Boleyn, I must admit that you are right...sorry, I tend to be very sceptic when it comes to `night´ and blurry videos. Maybe this ´rounder´ appearance of male13 is just due to possition.

    Your arguments make sense to me.

    Castor fits him 😉

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    ueueue, great!

    Castor, welcome to Dawn Bird

    Thanks girls!

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  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator in response to NuriaM's comment.

    yipeehhhh! thanks so much Nuria!

    One more to tick off, Paula! (...with a real wiiiide grin 😃)

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    😄

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Hi @Boleyn,

    I needed to check some stuff and - seeing ACP0007u28 - I wondered whether you ever thought about him in the mix ... I am not really familiar with these guys, but maybe you have more than a vague idea about resemblance with him.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    @AnLand, I love you!! thanks so much, I have never seen this video before! 😄

    Actually I don't see him as a match to Castor because I miss the bright line above the lips and also the balding pattern is different BUT I consider him to be a match to DBMale10. They both have this special looking forehead of which I'm not sure if it's completely bald or rather different colored hair or sparse hair? The bright muzzle and the nose also look quite similar. The most obvious trait I think is that little bright irregularity on the the left side of the muzzle. Additionally I think both of them have that lanky posture and gait. Compare the videos below also for their movements and amount of grey on the legs and back:

    DBMale10 from ACP0007u7c (between sec 1 and 2)

    enter image description here

    and the new male from ACP0007u28 (around sec 9)

    enter image description here

    The most obvious trait:

    enter image description here

    I'm looking forward to your opinions! thanks!!

    Posted

  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1

    For what it's worth, I agree these two are a match. besides those things you have pointed out, @Boleyn, they both have the same scowl and pursed lip expression.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to zoogirl1's comment.

    It's worth a lot, @zoogirl1! I think, I agree. These guys are really not easy and I am super careful with Dawn Bird, but these dark lips are very similar. I wonder how that would look like in colored footage.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thank you both, yes you're absolutley right, those lips are unique and they look like from an old b/w movie: "some like it hot" Jack Lemon in women cloths and make-up - check it out here A classic 😃

    woohoo, @AnLand now you've got me hunting for a color video 😉 😄

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    I was looking at DBMale03 in ACP0007twp for a long time but now as @zoogirl1 mentioned the lips I thought he might be up for discussion as a match to DBMale10 as well.
    Depending on the angle his lips look actually pursed and red. I think I can also see an irregularity on the left side of his muzzle. Pretty bald flat head, almost strait brows and wide head, grey back. I always thought he is an older chimp but then he might be also the father of DBMale10 😄

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

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    Posted

  • zoogirl1 by zoogirl1

    love that movie!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to Boleyn's comment.

    Boleyn you're so right - this guy has Jack Lemmon lips, lol! (also agree that is a great movie 😉)

    I agree with you guys that the chimp in ACP0007u28 is a match to #DBMale10 in ACP0007u7c The lips, large light colored left ear, the bumpy lighter patch on his left muzzle, light back, same body size and shape. This is not definitive but they both seem quite camera-shy.

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thank you @Snorticus for backing this up 😄

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    Hello all! sorry for all this time away. It should be only one month, bu it ended being almost 2! sorry for that.

    I agree with this match, so great that you are discovering more matches 😉

    Has been a team work for what I have seen, who wants to select a name?
    ah, happy new year!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Welcome back, Paula! It's nice to have you back and I hope you enjoyed your trip! happy new year to you too! 😄

    If you don't mind I'd like to claim the right of naming this chimp. I know, again me, but it's the second of my supposed "twins" and I really need to name him "Pollux", if you agree. I'm more than ready to give naming rights at AV or any other site to @zoogirl1 or other diligent CSs here - but just not this one.

    Thanks a lot for your understanding!!

    Posted

  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    It's fine with me. We will find more matches. 😉

    Would you like to explain us who are Castor and Pollux? (I had to google it, to be honest :p )

    Thanks all!

    Posted

  • Boleyn by Boleyn moderator

    Thanks Paula!
    Well Mr. Google does certainly explain it better than me see here

    The reason why I've chosen these two names is the following: Castor and Pollux were twins but in Greek and Roman mythology they were considered to be half brothers with Leda as their mother conceived by her in the same night. Castor was the mortal son of Tyndareus, her husband, and Pollux was considered to be the son of godfather Zeus and thus immortal. (according to the story of Leda and the swan...)

    Since this whole thread here started with my assumption that they might be twins I thought the names would perfectly fit for those handsome chimps. We will most certainly never know whether they are twins, half-brothers or not at all related but in my phantasy everything might be possible. 😃

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  • PauDG by PauDG scientist, moderator

    I love the names with a reason behind!

    Thanks a lot Boleyn, and thanks for the explanation. 😉

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