Chimp & See Talk

Elvis - CFUnclear02

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I hope to assign the temp ID correct. He is CFUnclear02 (the original Elvis): ACP000b3iq, ACP000b3iv, ACP000b3iz, ACP000b3j1.

    I think, he enjoyed the figs already a day before here: ACP000b33n, ACP000b33o, ACP000b33p, ACP000b33q. He has a round belly, some baldness, a little bit soggy eyes, and a triangular left ear. The ear is undamaged and looks unique to me. He has a bony face. (I am not sure about sex right now, just a feeling). Videos found by @Henrik87.

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    I see a similar look to the size, coloration, skull shape, baldness, and ear (I think). And the large stomach, though that's not conclusive. It's hard to be positive because Unclear02's hair looks like it's fluffed up, and making things not look like I would expect them to. I think I agree, but I'm not positive. And considering the far-reaching impact (the other thread, where Unclear02 is tied to many others), I would like to be more confident. Let's see what others say. 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    This video is from another day previous and in my opinion the same chimp: ACP000b34o and ACP000b34s (Video found by @grok00). Left ear, body build, facial features like brows and nostrils and especially that streak of hair above the left brow are consistent.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I think, this is the same chimp ACP000b3du, ACP000b3dw, ACP000b3dx, ACP000b3dz (very unique ear, same body build, baldness pattern ...

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    ACP000b3dx appears to be a different chimp from a different sequence. The movements don't carry from one clip to the next. And comparing to the post before that, they have different-looking rear ends and different hair patterns on the inner right legs.

    ACP000b34s:

    unclear02

    From ACP000b3dx:

    new male

    The 4th clip in that sequence should be ACP000b3e2. So, ACP000b3du, ACP000b3dw, ACP000b3dz, ACP000b3e2. I think that's the closest match here to Unclear02.

    The other one (b34o, b34s) I'm still looking at, and comparing to unclear02 and other clip at the start of the thread. I'm not convinced they are the same, mostly due to the hair around the ear and stomach & back coloration, but need to sort through it a little more.

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Yes, might be, the videos are very mixed up at this site. One can probably determine later with the spreadsheet.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Yes, that was the next place I went. 😃 I think that's a different chimp. So, for the sake of having the data recorded somewhere, the chimp in question is ACP000b3dv & ACP000b3dx:

    male

    Does not match Unclear02 (different muzzle shape, baldness, ear shape)

    Unclear02

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    Not sure if this is helpful for others, but I'll add it anyway since it was helpful for me.

    Here are the full sets mentioned above, in order. They're back to back and just 3 minutes apart, I'm sure they're the same male:

    ACP000b3du, ACP000b3dw, ACP000b3dz, ACP000b3e2

    enter image description here




    ACP000b34o, ACP000b34s, ACP000b34t, ACP000b34u

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Yes @jwidness, that does help, thanks!! I've been going back and forth about b34o/b34s, so having this extended sequence for comparison really helps. Do you have thoughts about which of these match Unclear02?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    These are all Unclear02 in my opinion. I think the confusion is coming from the variations in the lighting. The flatter the light, the fewer details seen. That's why the ear in the contrasty color lighting of @AnLand first previews above from ACP000b33n, ACP000b33o, ACP000b33p, ACP000b33q looks so different - the contrasty lighting greatly exaggerates the high surfaces and deepens the shadows making it look much more 3D. (I think that chimp is also Unclear02)

    1. The ear looks very different in some of these clips but the convex inner horizontal ridge about 1/2 way down can usually be seen in any light because it curves so much higher than the other structures. Where the ridge breaks the outer rim of the ear it sometimes causes the ear to have a small sheared off looking angle, and sometimes it makes the ear look somewhat triangular.

    2. There is a small dark patch of fur that curves up beside the left side of the mouth, depending on the angle of view it may or may not be visible in different previews of the same clip.

    3. The dark stripe on the left side of the triangular bald spot can be seen at certain angles in most of the clips and the triangular bald spot seems to be present in all these chimps.

    4. The belly may distend from fig gases so might not always look the same.

    5. I think the muzzle shape is the same - it's the angle of view, chewing, and number of figs in the mouth that make that confusing.

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I'm going to restate the discussion so far (mostly to help me gather my thoughts).

    CFUnclear02 is the male in ACP000b3iq, ACP000b3iv, ACP000b3iz, ACP000b3j1

    enter image description here

    based on timestamp, he's likely to also be the male in ACP000b3j6, ACP000b3j8, ACP000b3ja, ACP000b3jd, but we don't see his face.

    enter image description here

    @AnLand suggested the male from ACP000b33n, ACP000b33o, ACP000b33p, ACP000b33q as a match to CFUnclear02. This second male's sequence continues in ACP000b3fj, ACP000b3fl, ACP000b3fn, ACP000b3fp, and ACP000b3ay, ACP000b3az, ACP000b3b0, ACP000b3b1.

    enter image description here

    @AnLand then added the male from ACP000b34o and ACP000b34s. His full sequence is ACP000b3du, ACP000b3dw, ACP000b3dz, ACP000b3e2 and ACP000b34o, ACP000b34s, ACP000b34t, ACP000b34u.

    enter image description here

    It's unclear to me if the male from ACP000b3dx was intended to be part of the proposal or not. But his sequence is ACP000b3dv, ACP000b3dx, ACP000b3e0, ACP000b3e3.

    enter image description here

    @Snorticus agrees with all the suggestions, @ksigler, which parts do you disagree with?

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Pics to illustrate points above, why I think all are Unclear02

    ACP000b3iz Preview 2 Unclear02 Ear ridge barely seen in flat light but the rim looks sheared off where it intersects. Dark fur curves up by mouth. Dark stripe over left brow, hair parting on the shoulder.

    enter image description here

    ACP000b34o Preview 8 Note the dark fur curve by the mouth, Dark streak left of bald spot, ear ridge there - lighter area mid-ear - but faint. Similar hair parting at the shoulder.

    enter image description here

    ACP000b3e2 Preview 1 Note white horizontal ridge inside ear, sheared off looking ear rim where the ridge meets the rim on the side, dark brow streak, hair parting on the shoulder.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000b3dv Preview 11 I think this chimp shares the characteristics of all of the other chimps also.

    Horizontal ear ridge, dark patch beside his mouth, dark stripe left side of bald triangle.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    ACP000b3fn Preview 7 Here is the dark fur stripe above the left brow.

    enter image description here

    ACP000b3fn Preview 8 Here is the horizontal ear ridge.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator

    Okay, I think I can go along with the "light makes them look different" argument. I worry that, if there were another chimp, it would also "look different," possibly making similar but different chimps look the same, just as much as the same chimp looks different.

    Anyway, in this case, it might be right. As @Snorticus said, eating can distort the face... so that difference is weak. The testicles in b3dx might be hidden by the angle. The only other strong question I had left was the comparison I had made on page 1 between ACP000b34s and ACP000b3dx. But I think I found the right screenshots to dispel the doubts. The dark vs. light stomach, back, and light stripe on the upper thigh are seen in all these sequences, even varying within-sequence.

    b3dx:

    enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here

    b34s:

    enter image description here enter image description here

    Unclear02:

    enter image description here

    And I think ACP000b3j6 that @jwidness added, if really a continuation, would seal the match for me, as it shows a rear end that matches b34s perfectly.

    enter image description here

    Whew!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    There were a lot of adjacent clips here and I think I looked at most (if not all) of the 15 previews for them this afternoon. That's why I think a chimp may have a trait that's in the clip but just not seen in every preview or missed when watching the clip because the chimp moves too quickly or is at the wrong viewing angle.

    I hope I don't seem too obnoxious here but I tend to get kind of passionate when talking about how light affects the appearance of things. I guess it's time to share that I have an MFA in photography and I worked in commercial studios for quite a few years. So I've spent lots of time creating, scrutinizing, and analyzing images with other people. Which doesn't mean I don't miss seeing plenty of things that you guys pick up on. Chimps are a completely new subject for me to think about but light in images is something I have some experience with.

    Also @ksigler - I agree that those chimp rears are a perfect match!

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to Snorticus's comment.

    Not obnoxious, and it's cool to learn that about you! This is why this "crowdsourced" analysis can be so successful, because of the many eyes with many different perspectives. 😃

    Posted

  • MimiA by MimiA scientist, moderator

    That is so great @snorticus - we wanna learn from all that experience!!! 😄

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    More clips of CFUnclear02 ACP000b3ki ACP000b3kj ACP000b3kl ACP000b3kn

    ACP000b3kj Preview 8 Note the dark left brow stripe, dark patch left of mouth, left ear horizontal fold.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    Although, I'm afraid that @tina_pixie_ is gone, we still have her original "Elvis" here and I just would like to draw attention again to this thread. We have meanwhile quite an agreement, I think. What is the science team thinking?

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    This thread somehow missed my attention. Catching up and will reply soon, thanks @AnLand (and for everyone who has been participating in my absent-mindedness! 😛 )

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Ok! To finally put in my two cents, I’ve reviewed all the videos discussed in this thread, and made some summaries myself. As for the identifying traits you guys have used to connect the videos, I’ve also made some comments below:

    Ear- To me, the most unifying characteristic across the videos. The fold at the middle of the ear, the loss of the lip near that fold, and the general shape and size in comparison to the rest of the head all remain consistent across videos, and I believe are the strongest characteristic as a candidate for a match.

    Shoulder part- I think this characteristic has been discussed before as one that’s not particularly reliable. More than anything, unless there is obvious scarring, the hair part we see at the shoulder is too variable and dependent simply on the movement of the chimp in the video. I’ve never used this characteristic in my own research to help me ID chimps, and I wouldn’t trust it to stay consistent.

    Line of hair on the left side, above brow ridge- Like the shoulder, this is likely more a function of the build of the jaw muscles (and the attachment of these muscles at the top of the head) rather than any characteristic particularly unique to the chimp. In all of the videos discussed here we are seeing the chimp from the same side, from approximately the same angle. The line of dark hair we see could in the end be unique, but I would believe it to be more a function of the angle from which we view the chimp.

    Gray back- I think @ksigler adds a really nice point here, that we should look out for variation in the night videos. What a great example to show that there can be variation in what we see even within the same sequence! I’m convinced that the differences we see regarding the color of the back might just be a lighting issue.

    Brow ridge- One thing that stuck out to me in the day video is that the brows are quite rounded and a bit damaged and unsmoothed. On the left edge of the brow ridge, we can see a bit of damage that appears to be scarring. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find that same pattern on the chimp in the night videos, although this could again be a lighting issue. The rounding pattern of the brows in the night chimp videos

    one [![one]( one

    don’t look unsimilar to that of the day chimp, although they don’t particularly scream match to me either. Again, could be a lighting issue.

    Scar to left of nose- In the day video, we see that there appears to be some white scarring on the left edge of the nostrils, although nothing is visible in the night chimp videos.

    one

    Dark spot near the mouth- Oh how I wished this had been a mole or birthmark… what an easy ID this would have been 😦 Unfortunately, simply another trick of the lighting in the night videos against the shape of the face.

    As for the proposed matches:
    CFUnclear02 videos ( ACP000b3iq, ACP000b3iv, ACP000b3iz, ACP000b3j1) and adjacent videos (ACP000b3j6, ACP000b3j8, ACP000b3ja, ACP000b3jd) I agree as a match to @Snorticus ‘s videos a few days prior ( ACP000b3ki ACP000b3kj ACP000b3kl ACP000b3kn)

    Prior to @Snorticus ‘ match, @AnLand proposed a CFUnclear02 match to ( ACP000b33n, ACP000b33o, ACP000b33p, ACP000b33q). To me, the shape of the face at least matches the original videos @AnLand posted ( ACP000b34o and ACP000b34s)

    one
    one

    I also share @ksigler ‘s hesitation about the differences and the trick the lighting is playing with regard to the facial differences, however if you all have already reached a consensus on all videos being matches, I don’t have any ammunition with which I can really argue otherwise. It seems like @Snorticus has quite a bit of experience with the trickiness of light. I’ll trust your judgement here!

    Before I call this a match, @ksigler , do you still remain unconvinced? @AnLand you agree with @Snorticus that all videos here are the same chimp?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    Yes, I mean most videos here have been proposed by me as a potential match (I still think it is the same chimp) and I wrote after @Snorticus' additional proposal of ACP000b3ki ACP000b3kj ACP000b3kl ACP000b3kn that I still agree. But I am actually not sure whether you agree and if not, why not?

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    This is a tough match at a tough site, especially with the few daytime clips. I think I'm good with it, though. 😃

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Alright then, @AnLand , you were the first to match! What shall we name CFUnclear02 ?

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    IF we all agree on this match (I am not sure everybody really consents), I would like to stay with the original name that @tina_pixie has chosen: Elvis. She might get another chance to name a chimp at the same time, but nevertheless. Elvis was her first choice for this chimp and it sticked now so long, so if we name I'd like to suggest just this.

    Posted

  • ksigler by ksigler moderator in response to AnLand's comment.

    Good idea. 😃

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus

    Elvis - I like it.

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Hi @AnLand , from what I can see in the thread, @ksigler was the only dissenter, and she seems to agree to it now. As I said earlier, we can move on to call it a match, so Elvis it is! @tina_pixie 's already been given a direct option to name a chimp over in the "Skinny Henry" thread now... we're just awaiting their reply for a name!

    Posted

  • Snorticus by Snorticus in response to northernlimitptv's comment.

    Hi @northernlimitptv - Just ran across this Elvis set again and noticed we are missing some official Elvis tags ACP000b33n ACP000b33o ACP000b33p ACP000b33q

    Also needing the official Elvis tags ACP000b3j6 ACP000b3j8 ACP000b3ja ACP000b3jd

    ACP000b33n, ACP000b33o, ACP000b33p, ACP000b33q

    ACP000b34o ACP000b34s

    Thank you 😃

    Posted

  • AnLand by AnLand moderator

    I tagged the ones that have been explicitely mentioned by @northernlimitptv in her matching response and should be accepted as well as the ones that belong definitely to an accepted sequence (adjacent videos within the same minute). I think that now all accepted videos are tagged including the ones mentioned by @Snorticus above.

    Please tell me if you do not agree to anything.

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Thanks very much @AnLand , yes please only tag ones that are listed in the official description page ... I have a habit of missing some! If a video doesn't make it to the official page then it's possible I didn't agree or feel we had enough to go on yet... in which case feel free to ask for a follow up! 😃

    Posted

  • luca-chimp by luca-chimp

    @AnLand ... you tagged this chimp as #Elvis, but I just read a thread about #Luise and I think she looks like #Luise. What do you think?
    https://talk.chimpandsee.org/#/boards/BCP000000r/discussions/DCP0000tpt
    Is this not the same chimp?

    Posted

  • northernlimitptv by northernlimitptv scientist, moderator

    Hey, @luca-chimp , I'm going to move this post over to the Cold Fire discussion board since this is one of our Cold Fire chimps! This here is a known male, Elvis! We've had lots of discussions about him. He does have a likeness to Luise, though, you're right!

    Posted

  • jwidness by jwidness moderator

    I think these are Elvis:

    ACP000b3ma
    ACP000b3mb
    ACP000b3mc
    ACP000b3md

    ACP000b3au
    ACP000b3av
    ACP000b3aw
    ACP000b3ax

    ACP000b3dv
    ACP000b3dx

    ACP000b352
    ACP000b355
    ACP000b357
    ACP000b359
    ACP000b39e
    ACP000b39f
    ACP000b39g
    ACP000b39h

    ACP000b3ge
    ACP000b3gf
    ACP000b3gg
    ACP000b3gh

    Posted

  • NuriaM by NuriaM scientist, moderator in response to jwidness's comment.

    Tagged 😃

    Thanks!

    Posted